trigger kit unreliable

[onebadeye]

Installed wolf trigger kit , apex firing pin. In 586 and 625 and both will only fire 3 of 6 rounds using fed.primers in both , what could I do for reliability.

[ede]

run Federal primers and make sure they're fully/deep/crush seated or adjust tenstion screw on spring. Couple of my revolvers only run 100% when I reseat the primers with a primer hand tool. Now that I have a 1050 I don't use the hand tool.

[Toolguy]

First make sure every primer is seated firmly. I seat mine fully on a 550B by leaning forward on the handle. No hand tool needed.

If that doesn't solve the problem then you need a little more spring pressure on the hammer.

You can get that by either straightening the spring or using a longer strain screw. You can make the strain screw "longer" by chucking the threaded part in a drill and filing some off the underside of the head while it's spinning.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Toolguy

[Carmoney]

This might be a good time to point out that there is no "drop-in trigger kit" for revolvers that will provide consistently satisfactory results.

[pskys2]

Each Revolver is a bit different and just like a 1911 kit, they really aren't drop in. They are a starting point.

1st Ignore the Pull weight and the Rebound Spring. On a 625 either using different length Strain Screws or bending the Main Spring adjust the hammer fall weight (measure using a trigger pull gauge on the hammer) to 48 oz. for the 625 and 42 oz for a 38 rimmed case.

The key is to get 100% reliability with the Federal Primers. No exceptions, if it adds even 1 pound to your ultimate pull it's better than a click in the middle of a COF.

Then go with the lightest rebound spring that will always return the trigger without hesitation. Right now I'm able to use an 11 lb -2 coils on my 627 and -1 coil on my 625. Some like a heavier rebound, just remember that too light of a rebound spring will actually slow you down.

I had a Bang Kit one time that knuckled the mainspring, had to bend it to add weight just to get it to work.

Edited September 15, 2013 by pskys2

[Waltermitty]

What Mike said.

S&W puts heavy springs in their guns to make them run reliably for the average Joe. Some individual revolvers are better than others, but a 100% reliable gun at reduced spring tensions will require work to eliminate drag, correct misalignment, and correct clearances.

[toothguy]

Each Revolver is a bit different and just like a 1911 kit, they really aren't drop in. They are a starting point.

1st Ignore the Pull weight and the Rebound Spring. On a 625 either using different length Strain Screws or bending the Main Spring adjust the hammer fall weight (measure using a trigger pull gauge on the hammer) to 48 oz. for the 625 and 42 oz for a 38 rimmed case.

The key is to get 100% reliability with the Federal Primers. No exceptions, if it adds even 1 pound to your ultimate pull it's better than a click in the middle of a COF.

Then go with the lightest rebound spring that will always return the trigger without hesitation. Right now I'm able to use an 11 lb -2 coils on my 627 and -1 coil on my 625. Some like a heavier rebound, just remember that too light of a rebound spring will actually slow you down.

I had a Bang Kit one time that knuckled the mainspring, had to bend it to add weight just to get it to work.

+1, I have an RCBS spring scale and I set the hammer spring to about 40 oz. I use a small piece of masking tape to keep a thin wire loop secured to the hammer ,about wear it hits the firing pin, so I can hook the pull scale to it.

Edited September 15, 2013 by toothguy

[mwx40x40]

First make sure every primer is seated firmly. I seat mine fully on a 550B by leaning forward on the handle. No hand tool needed.

If that doesn't solve the problem then you need a little more spring pressure on the hammer.

You can get that by either straightening the spring or using a longer strain screw. You can make the strain screw "longer" by chucking the threaded part in a drill and filing some off the underside of the head while it's spinning.

A cheap quick trick for a longer strain screw is to take a spent primer, pick the anvil out until all you have is the cup. Put the cup over the end of the strain screw and adjust as necessary. If this proves out you need a longer screw ,then you will want to advance to the afore mentioned solutions.

[onebadeye]

Thanks all but I put the stock hammer spring back in ,as reliabilty is more important than trigger pull

[dillon]

For proper primer seating, the easiest clue is if the rounds ignite on a second firing pin strike. If they do, then primers need to be seated deeper. If not, then it is something else.

[bountyhunter]

Installed wolf trigger kit , apex firing pin. In 586 and 625 and both will only fire 3 of 6 rounds using fed.primers in both , what could I do for reliability.

The longer firing pin does nothing to increase striking energy. IMHO, it's scam. I took some detailed measurements on my model 66's back when the extended pins first came out, they do not help. They are more prone to breaking.

Install a stock strain screw and the Wolff RP ribbed mainspring and it should work fine/

Edited September 17, 2013 by bountyhunter

[Tom E]

The longer firing pin does nothing to increase striking energy. IMHO, it's scam. I took some detailed measurements on my model 66's back when the extended pins first came out, they do not help. They are more prone to breaking.

Perhaps you'd share with us the results and your insights from those "detailed measurements".

[Wilson]

This might be a good time to point out that there is no "drop-in trigger kit" for revolvers that will provide consistently satisfactory results.

Sage advice. Yesterday, I followed Jerry's Trigger Job video,installed a 13lb. rebound spring and a Wolff reduced power mainspring. I kept the factory strain screw. Great results.

I took it to the range today and it only fired 2/3's of the factory Federal ammo I used. I tried it with and without new moon clips. Same results.

I re-installed the factory mainspring and an 11lb. rebound spring. It feels better than stock,but not nearly as nice as it was. I'll re-test next week.

This is on a newer 686 Plus 7-shot. It came stock with a ribbed mainspring.

Does S&W make/use different strain screws for use with the ribbed mainspring?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Wilson

[toothguy]

This might be a good time to point out that there is no "drop-in trigger kit" for revolvers that will provide consistently satisfactory results.

Sage advice. Yesterday, I followed Jerry's Trigger Job video,installed a 13lb. rebound spring and a Wolff reduced power mainspring. I kept the factory strain screw. Great results.

I took it to the range today and it only fired 2/3's of the factory Federal ammo I used. I tried it with and without new moon clips. Same results.

I re-installed the factory mainspring and an 11lb. rebound spring. It feels better than stock,but not nearly as nice as it was. I'll re-test next week.

This is on a newer 686 Plus 7-shot. It came stock with a ribbed mainspring.

Does S&W make/use different strain screws for use with the ribbed mainspring?

I really like the Bang Inc. (Jerry's) main spring. It comes in a kit with a 13-14 pound rebound spring. I use the main spring but substitute the rebound spring for the 11 lb. one from Brownells. Even though it's a scam I like the Apex firing pins. Mine have lasted a long time without breaking and the firing pin spring they give you with the pin seems to be tougher than the factory spring.

A revolver with a good trigger job makes a huge difference. When you buy one it's just not finished yet, even from the performance center. When you dry fire one of Toolguys or Carmoney's for the first time it's surprising the difference it makes.

[bountyhunter]

The longer firing pin does nothing to increase striking energy. IMHO, it's scam. I took some detailed measurements on my model 66's back when the extended pins first came out, they do not help. They are more prone to breaking.

Perhaps you'd share with us the results and your insights from those "detailed measurements".

Was really simple: had two 66's set up with access to the strain screw through the grip. I backed out screw reducing mainspring force and carefully marked the points where the same ammo would just start to misfire from light strikes. Change to longer firing pin and NO DIFFERENCE. No advantage for spring force and ignition.

I also did measurements on DA pull weight comparing how low it could go between the two firing pins and the longer pins gave no advantage. If they did give better strike energy (and enabled a lighter DA pull) they would be in every revo I own. They don't. They just break easier.

I did see that the Wolf ribbed mainspring could get the DA pull down about 1/2 pound lower than flat mainspring at point of misfires. The rib thing does seem to do a better job of striking for a given pull weight.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

Does S&W make/use different strain screws for use with the ribbed mainspring?

As far as I knew, the ribbed mainspring was designed to work with the stock strain screw. Edited September 20, 2013 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

I would point out this: I think extended pins are unnecessary and do not improve performance COMPARED TO THE CORRECT STOCK PART. There have been reports that some of the stock SW pins are undersized.... and should be canned and replaced. But, the correct pin is long enough. I found this in another thread:

"A couple years ago I pretty adamantly argued against the use of extended firing pins.

I have softened my viewpoint somewhat. The main reason for my partial change of heart on the aftermarket pins is that the current factory firing pins (the California drop-test compliant version) are so dang awful. The original .495" round-tip factory Ti pins worked great--even in lightened competition actions--but the California pins tend to causes all kinds of misfires if the action isn't full factory strength. I still have a small quantity of "good" factory pins in my inventory, but when they are gone I will be switching to either the C&S pin or the Randy Lee pin."

If SW is installing the wrong part in some guns, that's easily correctable.... without going to a longer pin that increases the chances of breaking.

The first thing I did to see if the longer pins would be better is measure the protrusion distance through the breech face of the MIM pin fully forward (hammer fallen) and found it to be the same as the hammer mounted firing pins. If your firing pin is a stubby, replace it with the right one. I don't know if SW is truly shipping midget pins in california guns, but you can still buy the standard length pin and install it.

[bountyhunter]

one opinion.

Quoting a gunsmith off the SW Forum regarding extended firing pins:

"Don't. They're excessively long and will hit the rim recess if dry fired without snap caps. They also have a nasty habit of breaking and trashing the firing pin spring. The stock pins that measure .492-.495" work as well as anything. Only reason I can see to use the C&S pin is if you want to shoot loose (un-moonclipped) .45acp in a 625."

Regarding the california pins:

"The "problem" with S&W firing pins is not a quality issue. They're titanium (except in some of the early FMFP guns) and well made. There are several designs due to California's idiotic "drop test" and some work better than others. The "good ones" are the ones that measure .492-.495" long."

[Toolguy]

The .495 factory pins work fine under normal conditions. I have had several factory ones that were less than .490. Those do not work with a light action.

The extended ones work better for lightened actiions when using firmly seated Federal primers because they are lower in the primer pocket than a factory primer, thus further away from the firing pin. Also, guns that have been cut for moon clips by various and sundry smiths will vary in depth, some deeper than others. The guns themselves will vary a little from manufacturing tolerances and rim thickness and depth of primer pocket on different brands of brass is another variable.

Due to these and probably other variables some guns do fine with factory pins and some need longer pins. Each gun is an individual because of a different mix of variables and must be addressed as such when doing an action job. The factory firing pins were designed to work under ideal conditions when everything is made according to the blueprint tolerances and doesn't take into account the real world out of spec situations.

[toothguy]

I broke a few of the C&S extended pins (no snap caps) and went to the Apex extended pin. I finally broke the Apex after about 2 yrs of continued dry fire with no snap caps. I started using snap caps and have not had another Apex break. I use the factory pin in the 617 because of possible damage to the cylinder, even though I don't dry fire any of my rim fires. From my experience when I use the extended pin I can let the strain screw out about 1/2 to 3/4, of a turn, more and still get good reliability. I think Toolguy's explanation is sound, If you flatten the primer fully forward in the pocket, all the hammer's energy is used to ignite the primer but you extend the striking distance.

I buy the Apex pins because they work and don't break. If you dry fire a lot it's probably a good idea to replace the pin and spring every year or two no matter which one you use.

Also I talked to Bill Laughridge (C&S) at Bianchi and he exchanged all the old pins I had for new ones. I think the new pins use a different metal and are more resistant to breaking. I have not tried any of the new C&S pins yet.

Edited September 20, 2013 by toothguy

[bountyhunter]

The .495 factory pins work fine under normal conditions. I have had several factory ones that were less than .490. Those do not work with a light action.

That was my point. A good .495 pin works as well as the extended pins with my ammo. No difference at all in ignition. I also found a couple of short pins and chucked them and replaced them with proper .495 pins. S+W has very poor quality control on piece parts, FPs are not the only parts with issues.

"The extended ones work better for lightened actiions when using firmly seated Federal primers because they are lower in the primer pocket than a factory primer, thus further away from the firing pin."

maybe, I never tried that, but first thing I did was measure how far the FP comes through the breech face and compare it to the old hammer mounted FP. The .495 pin in my guns comes through the same distance, no change. So, I assume that means those hammer mounted pins would also not work well with these primers. Sounds like an ammo problem.

"Due to these and probably other variables some guns do fine with factory pins and some need longer pins."

maybe, I just could not find any advantage at all in any of my guns. I suspect if there is a difference it's due to another problem which could be addressed and fixed. Just my opinion.

"Also I talked to Bill Laughridge (C&S) at Bianchi and he exchanged all the old pins I had for new ones. I think the new pins use a different metal and are more resistant to breaking. I have not tried any of the new C&S pins yet."

I hope they are better. I tried three C+S pins some years back and two broke rather quickly. Also, they appeared to be either MIM or cast and had rough flash on the sides. I had to clean and polish them to get them to fit without dragging. No improvement at all in performance, obviously I do not use them any more.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

From my experience when I use the extended pin I can let the strain screw out about 1/2 to 3/4, of a turn, more and still get good reliability.

That is the test I did on my 66 and 686 guns and saw no difference at all with factory .38 ammo. I was specifically looking for any advantage and it wasn't there. I suspect (based on testing) that if the factory FP is good and proper length (.495) performance does not change. If the pin is too short, it will. In all my guns, I think I found two pins a shade under .495 and replaced them with the stock .495 FP. I just saw no change with standard factory ammo like Sellier Bellot, UMC the usual junk.

[Tom E]

From my experience when I use the extended pin I can let the strain screw out about 1/2 to 3/4, of a turn, more and still get good reliability.

What's the length of the firing pin you replaced with an (I assume) C&S firing pin? Or are you calling a .495 ("correct" length) firing pin an "extended pin"?

The Apex pins came about at a time when we couldn't get the .495 factory firing pins. What we were seeing in the guns were <.490 in several configurations as were the pins we were getting as parts. The last S&W pins I've bought have been the .495 length again. I have a few on BO currently, we'll see what they are.

I just bought two 5" 627-5's, one had a .495 hemispherical tipped pin (the "good" one) the other had a .480 something tapered tip pin that's now in the garbage. IMHO the S&W pins seem to have an advantage being titanium.

[toothguy]

From my experience when I use the extended pin I can let the strain screw out about 1/2 to 3/4, of a turn, more and still get good reliability.

What's the length of the firing pin you replaced with an (I assume) C&S firing pin? Or are you calling a .495 ("correct" length) firing pin an "extended pin"?

Tom, I was comparing the original factory pin to the Apex (.495), sorry I did not measure the length of the factory pin.

Edited September 21, 2013 by toothguy

[toothguy]

From my experience when I use the extended pin I can let the strain screw out about 1/2 to 3/4, of a turn, more and still get good reliability.

That is the test I did on my 66 and 686 guns and saw no difference at all with factory .38 ammo. I was specifically looking for any advantage and it wasn't there. I suspect (based on testing) that if the factory FP is good and proper length (.495) performance does not change. If the pin is too short, it will. In all my guns, I think I found two pins a shade under .495 and replaced them with the stock .495 FP. I just saw no change with standard factory ammo like Sellier Bellot, UMC the usual junk.

Just curious, what is the reliable trigger pull weight on your 686 with your current loads (not flattened primers) ? Also what was the length of the extra length firing pins (greater than .495) that are prone to breakage and who made them?

I found those C&S pins I got from Bill and the package says Extended Firing Pin New Style. I measured the pin and came up with .510, is this the pin you are talking about?

Edited September 21, 2013 by toothguy