Suggestions for Scope for Manually Operated Rifle

[Religious Shooter]

I did a search and couldn't find anything on scopes for Manually Operated Rifle (MOR).

I'd prefer that the scope can also be used succesfully as a benchrest scope (for load development), sniper events and do double duty as an optic for a wabbit gun (.22).

I had a $80 BSA scope. It went TU when I used it to shoot prone with an Ar15 (wasn't shouldered well and the recoil "bounced" the gun while using the magazine as a monopod).

The Accupoint and the IOR that I have don't have good reticles (IMHO) for shooting groups (to develop loads) and I doubt 4X is enough for MOR.

Soooo... I'm looking for a decent and affordable scope. Looking for suggestions. What where the Nationals and RM3G folks using in the MOR events?

[John Dunn]

The benchrest crowd seems to like a lot of magnification, some folks are running fixed 36X scopes. For sniper matches I like my NXS 5.5-22X or a Leupold 6.5-20X, but those matches have shots out to 1,000. For MOR (which I haven't shot yet), I think 600 is about the longest shot (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so a good 3.5-10X should do the trick nicely. Some of the MOR crowd are using the Horus scopes and reticles to good effect.

I like Leupolds, as to their affordability, it is a chunk of change. To me it is worth it.

[rhino]

Leupold would be my first choice, if the $$$ assets are available.

For the more budget minded, there is a very spiffy Bushnell Elite 3200 10X40mm (fixed power) with mil-dots for a mere $200 "on the street." I have one on my compact Ruger .308, but I'm probably going to move it to the Remington .223 varmint gun at some point. It's an excellent piece of glass for the money. The lenses are made by Bausch & Lomb.

In between those two ends, Pentax and Nikon have some good stuff in their higher ends.

[George]

Had a cheapie POS 4.5x16 on my bolt action (BSA also) and it worked kind of OK but was a real bummer to spend any time behind. Put a Leupold 3.5-10 x on it and now I enjoy looking through it. It is a whole lot easier to hit stuff way out there with good glass.

I have target knobs on it and find them indispensible for LD shooting as it is much better to apply dope, than it is to hold over, or off.

There really is nothing cheap that will do a "real" good job at this.

The HORUS system rocks, but it cost's bigtime too. On the other hand, not much is faster than the HORUS for engaging lots of targets at differing distances.

A MilDot reticle would also be a good choice for MOR if you can't get "behind" the HORUS system (all pun intended).

I managed to get a lot of first round hits on the long distance targets at the RM3G sidematch with my 3.5x10 (cranked to 11), but felt that more magnification would have been much-mo-betta for the job at 6-700 yards.

--

Regards,

Edited November 7, 2004 by George

[michael_aos]

My choice would be the Leupold 4.5-14x40mm, PR Long Range.

[Nick Weidhaas]

You can't go wrong with a Leupold, but my preference is Nightforce. The scopes are built like a tank and I think glass is better than Leupold, IMO. The one I've used a lot is the 3.5-15X50 and it is just an awesome scope. The reticles are etched, no wires. The NPR2 reticle is a MOA ranging system (versus mil-dots) that can be used for hold over. You can find them for about $900 if you look around. Check the classified sections of the sniper web sites like www.snipershide.com and www.sniperscountry.com (emporium).

Best,

Nick

[Nick Weidhaas]

Forgot to mention that the Nightforce scopes all have illuminated reticles that are very sharp/precise. Batteries last forever as well.

Nick-

[EricW]

Nightforce is certain the badass setup. Total overkill for 600 yards, but you won't be unhappy. They even have a cosine indicator for shooting up/down grades. If I was going to spend $1000 on a scope, I'd go with the nightforce over everything else in that price range.

[Chriss Grube]

Horus Vision is putting their reticles in Leupold scopes now. Best scope going is the US Optics with a H-25 Reticle. Then the Leupold with the H-25 followed by a Leupold with the Gen 2 Mildot. If you are serious about accuracy and repeatability forget anything under about 800 bucks cause it won't cut it. They'll be somebody that will post how their 100 dollar wonder tasco will but I want to see it done. The cheaper scopes are ok on a hunting rifle that gets zeroed at 100 and stays there but for anything else forget it.

[rhino]

Chriss, is the $800 lower limit you set based on variable power, or does it include fixed power scopes too?

[John Dunn]

Chris,

Can you send your Leupold to Horus and have them install the reticle, or is it a factory option from Leupold? Thanks!

[Chriss Grube]

Rhino,

Not a big fan of fixed power. 10X is too much in most LE and close range stuff and not enough out at 1000 for optimum results... so that is for Variables.

John,

As far as I know it is only an option through Horus.

[EricW]

What Chriss said. Fixed 10X scopes are a joke. I used one in a match exactly once.

[rhino]

What Chriss said. Fixed 10X scopes are a joke. I used one in a match exactly once.

You mean a joke for 3-gun, or a joke in general?

[EricW]

What Chriss said.  Fixed 10X scopes are a joke.  I used one in a match exactly once.

You mean a joke for 3-gun, or a joke in general?

In general, for the purpose of precision rifle fire from distances of point blank to 1000 yards.

They seem like a great idea right up until you go to a match (sniper or otherwise) and have to shoot at 75-150 yards offhand - which is incredibly difficult with a 10X scope. And yes, Carlos Hathcock could do it, but damned few of us are up to his standard.

Fixed 10X works for the Marines with their rigid doctrine of 600-1000 yards only. But, it's not 1967 anymore and there's at least half a dozen scopes that would work better.

P.S.

I'm not saying this because I want to be a pseudo-sniper smarty-pants. I really don't know squat about rifle-shooting, but I did have the opportunity to attend a sniper match once and it became plainly obvious that fixed power scopes are EXTREMELY limiting. It was a great experience, because learning by object lesson is 1000X more valuable than having someone pound dogma into your head.

[The other thing I learned is that I would probably build a rifle with a fluted barrel - for the sole reason of having a balanced rifle for offhand shots. Shooting a 24" bull barrel offhand is very awkward.]

[Chriss Grube]

The 10x was a best choice compromise way back when variables were not as reliable as the fixed. Like a lot of other ideas used by the military it stuck around. It was a compromise choice which means that it was ok for most military engagements. If ok is good enough for you then by all means pick a fixed power and save a couple bucks. Since it isn't 1965 anymore and we have advanced a long way there is really no need to limit your gear with a fixed power scope.

[Bill H]

If you go Nightforce NXS you'll never go back. They are the best I have seen. Pricey but worth it.

Bill

[John Dunn]

I hate it when people say, "Once you go X product you'll never go back"

I have a Nightforce NXS, it is a good scope, but not the "ultimate".

And yes, they do break. I had to send mine in to have the lenses remounted after they got jarred loose when I knocked the rifle over . The scope with "extreme" in the name failed after falling over from a 9 inch height (tipped over on the bipod)!

It is a very nice scope, but it is just a scope. Great customer service BTW.

Leupolds are a nice balance of weight, durability, reputation, optical quality. I have bought at least one since the NXS proving that sometimes you may "go back."

I know people who think the ultimate scope is a US Optics. Or Schmidt and Bender, or Zeiss or Swarovski or ACOG.

Others like Benny Hill can kick your butt with a Simmons (what I have always thought to be the optical equivalent of a Jennings/Lorcin).

Pick one you you like, pick one you have confidence in, and by the time you get so good that your equipment is holding you back, you should have a case full of trophies.

Sorry Bill H, that wasn't directed at you, your post just riggered it.

[Religious Shooter]

Hmm... thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm kinda jonesing for an illuminated SN-4 for my 3G rifle so I don't know if I want to spend a good chunk of change for a scope since the SN-4 will cost $1300+. 3G rifle is my main interest and MOR/Sniper Matches won't be a huge focus.

Budget-wise I am looking at the mil-dot equipped Weaver Tactical 4.5-14X scope (~$500), one of the Bushnell 4200 ($400) or the Leupold Mark IV PR scope ($600).

I'm interested by the Weaver because it has the reticle in the first plane. How important is this feature? Are the Weaver's any good? Do you think this feature is important enough that the Weaver would be better than the above Leupold?

Furthermore, I haven't shot MOR/Sniper events. But can you just walked through a stage and laser all the targets before you shoot?

Are ranging lasers legal to use while shooting a stage? For example say it's a "surprise" stage so you can't laser it before hand. So when you run a stage and come to a shooting position you set-up and laser the target and then engage it.... is this legal?

Also a number of you indicate that 10X is not enough. What power range is ideal?

The Bushnell is available in 4x16 and 6x24 (I've read that the 6x24 is a little fuzzy on the top end). Which power range would you choose?

[rhino]

heh ... the only reason I have a fixed 10X scope is because it was on the rifle when I bought it. It turned out to be a really nice scope, but obviously it has its limits in terms of versatility. I thought MOR matches occurred exclusively at intermediate ranges, so I though it might be viable option.

[EricW]

Rhino,

I didn't mean that what you've got is totally inadequate and that you should rip your scope off and go on a $1500 spending spree. 10X is working for a whole lot of working professionals out there. They just have to work a little harder. If your shooting is done prone or off a rest and is 800 yards or less, you'll probably never miss the adjustability.

After actually using a fixed 10X for a bit, it would simply not be what I'd rush out and throw on long-range rifle ahead of other products. This is another instance where civillians are bit ahead of the military.

[rhino]

Heh! The idea of me shooting at 800 yards is ... amusing. I'd be lucky to hit anything at 250-300 without a lot of help! I'm a noob at riflery. I'm getting really good at shooting at 50 yards from prone with my AR, though.

I still haven't cleaned or fired a shot through the .223 yet. I'm still saving pennies (need to make some pennies, actually) for some glass for it. This topic about MOR optics is thus of great interest to me! I still had the slight urge to move the 10X to that rifle because ... I have it ... but I think I might just wait a while longer.

[BillL223]

Having never shot an accuracy or bullseye type match before, I shot a competitive score using a Bushnell 3200 10 x 40 ( about $150 from Natchez) as previously described at the recent Carlos Hathcock Memorial match with an out of the box LTR. This match is shot @ 300 yds. I shot last years MOR at the 3-Gun Nationals with a different scope and would not hesitiate to use the Bushnell. Bill H whipped me with his Nightforce but I'm old and slow and cheap.

[rhino]

Bill, somehow ... I feel close to you!

[Nate]

Some one better throw out the anchor as I feel I am drifting. I'm doing the MOR rifle on the cheap thing. Still spending the price of a used .40 wide body. I am convinced I have the right rifle and the right calibre. Scope I bought is a question mark but looks good in the box. Still need rings, bipod, dies, range finder......... I am thinking about sending the rifle off to JP to have one of his comps mounted. No recoil (they are awsome) will have to help my shooting. I wont list the brands until I can see what I have as I don't think I can take too much "encouragement" right now.