New Cooper "scout" rifle?

[michael_aos]

I was watching American Shooter tonight and they did a segment on the Cooper scout rifle. They said several companies are introducing new models based on the concept.

Anyone heard who they are?

Mike

[michael_aos]

I see Ruger has one now.

[John Dunn]

Far as I know Steyr and Savage still offer scout rifles. I haven't heard about a new one though. How old was the program?

[EricW]

The Scout concept begs the question: "Why?" It only solves one problem: loading ammuntion. A problem which has long since been solved by a better mousetrap: the magazine.

Forget the Scout Rifle and get a conventionally-scoped rifle with a detachable magazine. If you buy a Rem 700, there's several options. I've seen exactly one case where the "Scout" rifle really made sense: when a friend scoped up his daughter's Chipmunk 22 rifle. One of these days I'll post a pic.

The Scout rifle simply makes no sense when you could go with a DPMS 308 for very little extra cost and no sacrifice in accuracy. (Also, I've yet to see a Ruger bolt-action rifle that shot MOA or better. I'm sure there's one or two out there, but it's a rare Ruger indeed.)

[Flexmoney]

What is the concept behind the "scout rifle"?

[EricW]

What is the concept behind the "scout rifle"?

http://pw2.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html

Quotable quotes:

The "concept"

...modern technology enables us to produce a rifle which need not sacrifice either power or accuracy to convenience. The new-wave rifle is neither more powerful nor intrinsically more accurate than the rifles of the past, but it is much, much handier--shorter, lighter and quicker to operate. The current guideline is a length limit of one meter and a weight limit of three kilos. (This weight is measured with all accessories in place but with the weapon unloaded.) Immediately these limitations point us toward short actions, short barrels, compact sights, and synthetic stocks. A further feature which distinguishes the modern scout rifle from its predecessors is the telescope sight, but that in a certain particular mode. The modern scout uses a low-power telescope mounted just forward of the magazine well. In recent decades, progress in the development of telescope sights has been to a certain extent negative in that telescopes, instead of becoming stronger, smaller and faster to use have become larger, more cumbersome, more fragile and almost necessarily mounted too high above the bore...

Without exception, those who have tried the forward mounted glass in a full course of rifle training are unanimous in their conviction of its superiority...

Groan...

The trigger system should be smooth and clean, and provide a three-pound "glass rod" release.

Groan...

The whole concept of great rapidity of fire in a rifle has been weighed and found, not exactly wanting, but somewhat inconsequential..

Groan....

[Detlef]

Eric,

groan a bit more, then go and try the Steyr yourself (I never even saw the Ruger). Forget all that written sh.t... It is a really nice repeating rifle, with the exception of the Blaser R92 the best one I've ever shot. Is it worth the enormous extra expense? Depends largely on your paycheck and preferences....

--Detlef

[rtr]

Hey Michael The Gun Vault has one of the Steyr scout rifles (they are at the corner of Constitution and Powers, southwest corner to be exact).

The one I handled had a Leupold scope on it, seemed kinda nice, price seemed high $1900, I think I'd go with a Rem 700 built by a competent gunsmith.

[shred]

I have a "scout scope" forward-mounted on my takedown 45-70 lever gun. In that case forward is about the only convenient spot for a scope anyway, but the concept works OK for short-to-medium range both-eyes-open shooting (as if you'd want to hose with an 18" 45-70 to begin with)

[John Dunn]

I have a Steyr Scout in .308. It is a nice gun, but I don't use it much. Out in the wide open west I prefer more magnification in my scopes than 2.5X. If I ever get back to deer hunting in the woods of northern Michigan, where the shots are typically fast and close, it would be my first choice.

I think Cooper envisioned this as a military weapon, as well as a hunting arm. Cooper has way more combat experience that me (zero), but I would take an M4 over the Stetr Scout any day.

I wouldn't groan over the scout concept, but you can consider this a sigh.

[EricW]

If you had a Scout rifle, you'd be the coolest guy in the trench.........in 1917 France. The Scout rifle as applied to modern warfare is about as useful as a stealth trebuchet.

If you're hell-bent about going short and (relatively) light, a LE supplier called Territorial Supplies is selling a tricked out Remmy 700 LTR that's got a 20" fluted barrel, the 40X trigger, lapped bolt face, etc. All for under $1K delivered. You could easily put a scope, mounts, and an HS Precision box magazine kit on it for less than the bare Steyr.

For the life of me, I don't understand why rifles have been mandated by God to weigh 6 lbs or less. We could all just drop 5lbs off our bellies and carry real guns and be far better off.

[/Jeff Cooper Annoys The Living Crap Out Of Me Mode]

[hiropro]

Now that cooper is in the great here after I expect to see more scout rifles. pimping his name. I shot a styer, cool rifle would I use one. hell yes hunting deer. As a modern military arm HA HA AHA HA. I would love to have one as a hog and deer gun though and a fun plinker. Shame it isnt a bit less expensive. Then i would have bought one. If i am going to drop that amount of coin into a bolt gun it better be a long range precision rig.

hiro

[Malak]

I have a Styer Scout Jeff Cooper package (laser etched Leupold, ten round box mag, bipod, etc.) It is one of the older all black Cooper package guns with the smaller flater bolt handle. I don't use it much anymore, but it is a hell of hunting gun, if you hunt on foot, which I did alot of, it is the bees knees. The rifle is a .308, fluted barrel. Has a built in bipod, back up iron sights, super clean trigger, and a VERY good sling system. I like it for the weight reduction, the sling system, the bipod, the ten round mag with an extra ten rounds in the stock.

The forward mounted scope is really cool, especially for moving objects, but I don't think it is the coolest feature of the rifle. I had a Leupold 4.5-14x50mm VXIII traditionally mounted on it for a little bit, need the scope for an other gun, so it got the orignial scope put back on. I can bang a 10 inch 'gong' at 300 yards all day long prone, and most of the time kneeling or standing with the sling. And as far as ground hunting (not 'out of you weather sealed heated blind listening to the game drinking a beer' hunting) 300 yards is too far to shot, I will normally track in to at least 200 or less yards, that was part of the fun in ground hunting, tracking in close to the animal.

Anyway, the scout is cool, but I agree there are other rifles that are 'a better mouse trap.'

[Bill T]

To me the whole scout concept is a solution to a non existant problem. It looks stupid and limits your scope choices from most all, to just a few. If the whole thing had any merit it would have caught on faster than the rear engined dragster. It didn't. It's only kept alive by a few Cooper devotees who believe as he did that all you need is a 1911 and a scout rifle in .308 to take on the world and it's adversaries. Most know better and rifle sales prove it. Bill T.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Bill T

[tightloop]

BillT

Let's not have this thread deteriorate with comments like that....Cooper is still revered even though he has passed...everyone has their own ideas of what a rifle should look like ...he had his and you have yours...until you give the shooting public as much or more than did the Colonel, try not to disparage his memory with comments like the ones you made...

Thanks

tightloop

Edited October 13, 2006 by tightloop

[Larry White]

+about 62, I dont have one, dont want one but there aint nothin personal about it.------Larry

[ima45dv8]

Bill, you make a good point, but you don't make it in a good way.

[Malak]

... limits your scope choices from most all, to just a few.....

The Jeff Cooper Scout Rifle can have just about ANY scope mounted on it, Long Eye relief or a tradtitional scope... if you look at the picture, the intergral rail across the top of the rifle has places to mount a tradtional scope, no just forward mounts. I had a VXIII 4.5-14x50mm mounted in Mark 4 rings on this rifle for a while, then used the scope for something else... If you ever get the chance to play with one, it is a very nice rifle, built really well, and packed with features that you just don't get on many rifles.

If I was a scout (I am not) and had to quitely run through the jungle and evade the enemy, I would imagine, this would be a very ideal weapon for SCOUTING, not sniping, or CQB.... if you handle the weapon, you can tell it was very purpose built.

[MikeFoley]

The non-scout Steyr SBS rifles are really awesome rifles, I have one in .308 and I love it. The scout is just another configuration built on a good platform, and it serves as a light hunting rifle for taking moving game in my opinion. I don't think it was ever designed to be a combat weapon for conventional warfare. I personally like the idea, but wouldn't even consider 2.5X magnification only and the additional expense. I bought my Steyr and a Kahles 2-7X scope for way less than a scout rifle, and it is light and mag fed, and properly scoped for a variety of uses. The scout would likely be a good rifle for a commercial hunting guide IMO. I think Cooper just got the opportunity to work up a gun he liked with a reputable maker and there is nothing wrong with that. He did the same thing with the Bren 10 which was not a commercial success either.

Edited October 15, 2006 by fomeister

[Bill T]

+about 62, I dont have one, dont want one but there aint nothin personal about it.------Larry

Exactly. Jeff Cooper was a knowledgeable person in the area of firearms. As was Elmer Keith. That said it doesn't mean everything they preached was, or is gospel. In life or in death for that matter. Not liking, or wanting a scout type rifle is no disrespect to Cooper anymore than not wanting a .475 Westley Richards Double, or to shoot deer at 600 yards with a 4" revolver, is a slam against Keith. Bill T.

Edited October 15, 2006 by Bill T