56hawk Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 What powder would you recommend to replace SP2. I just ran out and would like to try something that runs about the same. Was loading 10.8 grains behind a 115 FMJ for 170 power factor. Tried using some SR 7625 I had laying around, and the gun won't reliably cycle even at 185 power factor. Can't go any higher as I'm starting to see some pressure signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 HS-6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Vit N-105 is the closest thing I have see to SP2. Not sure why you are having cycling issues with the 7625 though. I run that powder at 8.5 albeit with a 124 at 173-175 and have no cycling issues at all. 105 is expensive since you can't get it in larger containers and will be a compressed load at the 10 plus grains it will take for you to hit your PF. Very safe powder though. Just a mess on the press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56hawk Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 HS-6? Looks like it's about half way between SP2 and 7625. I think a friend of mine has an extra pound of it. If so I'll try loading some up soon and see how it does. Vit N-105 is the closest thing I have see to SP2. Not sure why you are having cycling issues with the 7625 though. I run that powder at 8.5 albeit with a 124 at 173-175 and have no cycling issues at all. 105 is expensive since you can't get it in larger containers and will be a compressed load at the 10 plus grains it will take for you to hit your PF. Very safe powder though. Just a mess on the press. The gun was originally built for me in the late 90's for 175 power factor. I recently got back into competing and had it acc-u-railed and chromed to freshen it up. I've put a few thousand rounds through it since but it's still really tight. Even with SP2 and a seven pound spring it's only good for about 500 rounds between cleanings. I was looking at N105, just not so happy about the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) AA#7 and 3n38 is very close to SP2 in terms of feel and relative burn rate. N105 had a different recoil impulse for me. Edited June 22, 2013 by al503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) Here is what Vihtavuori says about 3N38 "This specially designed powder for competitive handgun shooting is recommended for high velocity loads of 9 mm Luger, .38 Super Auto and .40 S&W with moderate bullet weight. Burning rate is corresponding to Vectan SP 2." I run 10.4 grains with a 115 grain bullet in 38 SC brass at 1.245" COL for 174 PF. No pressure signs with Federal rifle primers. Edited June 22, 2013 by superdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 3N38 is the closest thing in terms of muzzle rise and fast recovery shots. But it is louder and slaps your hand a lot harder. Requires compressed loads unless your OAL is way out there (VERY compressed loads in 9Major) but won't gum up your powder measure like SP2. Nothing is really close to SP2. It's the best Open powder ever, all the others compete for a distant 2nd place. I'm hoarding 6 lbs for major matches and when that is gone I will be sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baer45 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Fwiw - I have My best performance with 3N38 shooting 38 Super in minor..I'm an accuracy nut...and try a lot of combinations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Another thing with N38 besides being hands down the loudest powder I have shot is when I used it I had huge fireballs out of the popple holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwmiket Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Most folks that I know who used SP2 until it became unavailable ended up switching over to IMR4756......just FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56hawk Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Thanks everyone, I just ordered three pounds each of 3N38 and N105 to play around with. Wanted to get some other options, but they were sold out of everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) Forgot to say, whatever your powder charge was with SP2, you can use the same weight of 3N38, within a tenth, it will chrono the same and flip slightly more. For me, it is 10.3 gr with 115 JHPs. However, the Viht powders are significantly more bulky so you may have to crank CW a full turn or more (more volume of powder) to get to the same charge weight. As always, if you have it, the nickel-plated brass will allow your dot to behave better and not dance around so much. Edited June 24, 2013 by eric nielsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Forgot to say, whatever your powder charge was with SP2, you can use the same weight of 3N38, within a tenth, it will chrono the same and flip slightly more. For me, it is 10.3 gr with 115 JHPs. However, the Viht powders are significantly more bulky so you may have to crank CW a full turn or more (more volume of powder) to get to the same charge weight. As always, if you have it, the nickel-plated brass will allow your dot to behave better and not dance around so much. Please explain this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 (edited) I've posted this at least 6 places. One mag, same ammo recipe other than brass. Load 4 rounds nickel cased, load 4 rounds brass, another 4 nickel, another four rounds brass. Seat mag, rack slide, shoot as fast as you can put hits in the A-zone at 15-20 yards, 4 rounds at a time. Watch dot, see what happens. I don't have a conclusive answer why, it just is. Todd Jarrett once paid extra money to have his brass plated (1997?) with something even more exotic than the Remington nickel plating he'd been using. Said it helped him win the Open nationals, talked about it on tape for several minutes. I've only seen the difference with frame-mounted optics and a very efficient comp. For iron sights or slide-ride red dots, it's not worth the effort. Edited June 26, 2013 by eric nielsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Okay, but that explanation is still lacking. The question remains as to why? What is changing? You don't explain this. Is the gun running smoother or cycling faster because of the slippery coating on the brass aids feeding and ejection? Is this why the dot "behaves better" because it allows the slide to run faster? Please elaborate so we can understand the mechanism behind why nickel plated brass affects dot behavior. Otherwise it sounds like voodoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I don't have a conclusive answer why, it just is Super dude, did he studder? Voodoo or not, it can't hurt to try the experiment and see for yourself. I'm separating out a few pieces of nickel brass right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Back when major was major, and making said major was closer to the upper margins of the .38 super cartridge, using nickel plated brass was considered to be beneficial to gun function for the following reasons: 1. Nickel plating is harder than brass and strengthened the case slightly. 2. Nickel plating has an inherent lubricity which aids in mag feeding and extraction. 3. Nickel plating (done right) doesn’t corrode easily so loaded cases shouldn’t oxidize, which might exacerbate extraction/feed issues. I know in the 175pf major days some folks had extraction issues unless they used nickel plated brass because expanded non-plated brass can be “grippy” in the chamber during extraction. Since today’s major pf doesn’t stress the case as much I would speculate that a benefit seen by dot junkies now would be the reduction of friction during the extraction phase which leads to smoother slide operation and less dot movement. This would be similar to the effect seen by having a radiused firing pin stop or a squared firing pin stop. Radiused (IMHO) gives smoother and more predictable dot tracking (as does making sure your aren’t experiencing recoil spring coil bind ). I haven’t noticed this dot smoothing effect myself as I have been shooting mixed brass which is primarily non-plated. Will have to do a few bill drills using plated and non-plated sometime to check it out. Ok, that was my post derailment for the day. >>>>>>>>>> Never used SP-2 but it must be some excellant powder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I was talking with a revolver shooter shooter at a match who had the shiniest rounds I'd ever seen on his belt; he said he tumbles his loaded rounds with polish and they slide into the cylinder much nicer, he continued: "I would imagine you auto guys would benefit from smoother rounds too, after all, less drag as the round strips out of the mag and when it extracts out of the chamber".It makes sense to me. I for one don't like super light recoil springs because the slide seems to bog down as it strips the next round. If nothing else, a nickel case with a MG bullet shiny as hell would look pretty awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I don't have a conclusive answer why, it just is Super dude, did he studder? Voodoo or not, it can't hurt to try the experiment and see for yourself. I'm separating out a few pieces of nickel brass right now! Guess I missed that. And it think it's "stutter" not studder. In any event he should feel free to speculate. Especially after having posted it 6 times. But things happen for a reason. Anyone guess why? Anyone else confirm this? I can certainly see where it might happen if you're using the semi-rimmed 38 Super brass. The nickel should help it feed smoother. This might reduce slide-induced movement during the feeding stroke. But it might not be the case with brass vs. nickel SC. Thanks to Bamboo and kneelingatlas for their replies. Understanding why something happens the way it does is crucial to making purposeful progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavy Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 You don't always get the answers. A very bright old friend of mine once said something I have never forgotten. "I don't understand all that I know" Sometimes you just have to accept the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mturnbull333 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I'm looking for n38 and can't find any, is longsot comparable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Longshot is not very comparable to 3N38. Longshot is closer to Power Pistol in performance, charge weight and recoil characteristics. Take a look at Figures 4 and 5 here: http://38super.net/Pages/Gunpowder%20and%20Recoil.html N105 is more similar to 3N38. Accurate #7 isn't far off either. Others will have other suggestions. It might depend on your compensator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baer45 Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Brian Enos told us in these forums a while back to not tumble our bullets after loading because the Dillon lube helps the rounds feed better. I found it to be true and have been doing it ever sense...love the Dillon lube! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I use Accurate #7 and 3N38 interchangeably. I use them with 115 and 124/5gr bullets, pretty much whatever I can get at this point. #7 is slightly dirtier and it will bridge in the powder measure though. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I use Accurate #7 and 3N38 interchangeably. I use them with 115 and 124/5gr bullets, pretty much whatever I can get at this point. #7 is slightly dirtier and it will bridge in the powder measure though. Lee Never had no fuu fuu la due SP2 but shot a lot of AA#7 in 38S and used it in 9 Major. The unburned powder is like small rocks you see in bird cages, but it shoots very nice. Benny Hill use to have a slowmo video on his web site shooting a 115gr bullet out of one of his open guns with 11.2gr of AA#7. For 124gr some whare between 10 and 10.5 gr, I liked the high end for cleaner burning and to flatten the gun out. Lee thanks for the tip on 3N38 being about the same, these days who know what you can wind up shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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