Should ihave sent the guy home?

[ProGunGuy]

I was at the local Idpa match this weekend. I was in the safety are with a friend looking at a gun. a guy comes to the table with his buddy and starts messing with a 1911. they seem to be changing the mag catch. slide is open. the guy changing the catch points the gun straight up while using a screwdriver. after that, for whatever reason, when he sets down the gun, he points it 180 degrees from the berm, pointing it at themselves. that's when i opened my mouth and told them to point it downrange.

After that we left the safety area. I am not sure what i should have done in this situation, other than telling to quit pointing the gun in a unsafe direction

As i have described, how would you have handled it? would you go to the MD and get the DQ?

Edited June 17, 2013 by ProGunGuy

[Flatland Shooter]

Though it shouldn't matter, was the slide down at any time it was pointed in an unsafe direction?

If I'm a competitor, I should report it to the nearest RO. But more than likely I would probably just tell them to keep the gun pointed at the berm. If they take it to heart, that would be the end of it. If not, I'd mention it to the first RO I came across and let them or the RM handle it. And if everyone answers honestly, most will say to handle it the same way. I know this is the wrong answer but if I'm in the middle of the match, I need to keep my blood pressure down.

If I'm an RO for the match, I'd issue the DQ for unsafe gun handling and let the RM or arbitration committee weigh in if necessary.

(Note that I once got a warning for looking down the muzzle end of a barrel that was pulled completely out of the gun. It was just the barrel, comp, link and link pin.)

[Steve Koski]

What FLS said.

[JohnRodriguez]

they were in a safe area working on a gun with no mags or ammo around, I would have left them alone. The 180 applies to the couse of fire, The only rule, and they tend to be club, or range rules is no ammo in the safe area. Before you start handing out DQ's maybe the rule book needs to be read.

IMHO

[Sarge]

they were in a safe area working on a gun with no mags or ammo around, I would have left them alone. The 180 applies to the couse of fire, The only rule, and they tend to be club, or range rules is no ammo in the safe area. Before you start handing out DQ's maybe the rule book needs to be read.

IMHO

now you went and did it! I swore I never would but now I am going to have to read the IDPA rulebook Edited June 18, 2013 by Sarge

[Flatland Shooter]

they were in a safe area working on a gun with no mags or ammo around, I would have left them alone. The 180 applies to the couse of fire, The only rule, and they tend to be club, or range rules is no ammo in the safe area. Before you start handing out DQ's maybe the rule book needs to be read.

IMHO

That must be an area where IDPA and USPSA differ because it is a rule in the USPSA rulebook. Unsafe gun handling applies anywhere on the range, including the Safety Area.

USPSA Rule 2.4.1 -

Edited June 18, 2013 by Flatland Shooter

[ProGunGuy]

Though it shouldn't matter, was the slide down at any time it was pointed in an unsafe direction?

If I'm a competitor, I should report it to the nearest RO. But more than likely I would probably just tell them to keep the gun pointed at the berm. If they take it to heart, that would be the end of it. If not, I'd mention it to the first RO I came across and let them or the RM handle it. And if everyone answers honestly, most will say to handle it the same way. I know this is the wrong answer but if I'm in the middle of the match, I need to keep my blood pressure down.

If I'm an RO for the match, I'd issue the DQ for unsafe gun handling and let the RM or arbitration committee weigh in if necessary.

(Note that I once got a warning for looking down the muzzle end of a barrel that was pulled completely out of the gun. It was just the barrel, comp, link and link pin.)

At no time was the slide in other than open. i forget ot mention that when it went vertical, it was with the gun against the body, not at any arms length.

My real concern was when he put the gun down with the barrel facing themselves and 180 degrees from the berm. open or not, i am confident that is not proper in any rule book or range rule.

[Sarge]

Looks like something called "S1" pretty much covers it

[GrumpyOne]

Oh contrare! Nowhere in 2.4.1 does it say you can't break the 180, only that the gun be pointed in a "safe direction". Being that at a safe area, there really is no up or down range (since ammo is not allowed in a safety area, and safety areas may face in different directions if there is more than one on the range), I think it is up to the shooter to determine a safe direction. There is no WSB for a safety area clearly outlining the boundaries and 180 line.

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12.

2.4.1.4 Casing, uncasing, and holstering unloaded firearms. Practice the mounting, drawing, “dry-firing” and re-holstering of unloaded firearms. Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a firearm. Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories.

In "conducting inspections", it may be necessary to look at the muzzle of the gun (hopefully they would remove the barrel from the gun, but in the case of a revo, what then?)

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

10.5.12Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or trainingrounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

[Jane]

open or not, i am confident that is not proper in any rule book or range rule.

Yes, but... I'm with Mr. Rodriguez.

What would you have done here... ?

I took a class in January to renew my Nevada CCW.

They warned us not to leave any firearms in our cars.

We were sitting in a classroom consisting of rows of tables.

I had given up what ammo I had when entering the classroom.

I set my two Glocks down on the table in front of me with slides locked open and the barrels POINTED AT MYSELF.

Seemed more polite than having them pointed anywhere else. All of the other people had slide-locked guns on the tables in front of them pointing at other people.

As my high school biology teacher used to say, "nothing's ever always anything ... usually.... "

I realize that that anecdote is somewhat removed. But a safe table is supposed to be an area where you can work on guns. Every try running a boresnake through a gun without covering any part of yourself?

[Sarge]

Grumpy we are talking IDPA

[Flatland Shooter]

Oh contrare! Nowhere in 2.4.1 does it say you can't break the 180, only that the gun be pointed in a "safe direction". Being that at a safe area, there really is no up or down range (since ammo is not allowed in a safety area, and safety areas may face in different directions if there is more than one on the range), I think it is up to the shooter to determine a safe direction. There is no WSB for a safety area clearly outlining the boundaries and 180 line.

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12.

In "conducting inspections", it may be necessary to look at the muzzle of the gun (hopefully they would remove the barrel from the gun, but in the case of a revo, what then?)

In every match I've shot, the safety area had a table or a barrel or something you could set your gun down on. And every safety area was placed up next to a berm.

I agree that there is no 180 for the safety area especially the 95% of the safety areas that have no side berms and where someone could walk by to the left or right of the table headed between bays. In those cases, I would consider the only safe direction to point the firearm is towards the berm.

My point of view, if while in the safety area the gun is pointed in a direction that the shooter or anyone else on the range is permitted to be, then it is pointed in an unsafe direction.

As for looking down the barrel of a revolver, I do not compete with them round things so I do not know how folks handle it. But if they have the cylinder wide open and a few fingers between the cylinder and the frame, it wouldn't bother me. I'm not saying its the right way, I'm just saying it just wouldn't bother me.

Bill

Edited June 18, 2013 by Flatland Shooter

[motosapiens]

I couldn't dq someone for sweeping themselves while working on their gun in a safe area without more specific rules. I pretty much have to sweep myself to take apart my 1911 (probably because I'm a spaz).

DQ's shouldn't be based on someone's opinion of what unsafe gun handling is.

[GmanCdp]

NO ammo in safe area, then no foul.. Unless the club has a specific rule, you must know the rules of the club before the rules of IDPA.

Quote: That must be an area where IDPA and USPSA differ because it is a rule in the USPSA rulebook. Unsafe gun handling applies anywhere on the range, including the Safety Area.

USPSA Rule 2.4.1 -

Sorry,USPSA rules have NO bearing in an IDPA match.

[GmanCdp]

Quote: Sorry, USPSA rules have NO bearing in an IDPA match.

I should also add ICORE, Steel Challenge, IHMSA, ZSA or others.. Didn't want to get any panties in a wad..

[Merlin Orr]

I share this viewpoint.

NO ammo in safe area, then no foul.. Unless the club has a specific rule, you must know the rules of the club before the rules of IDPA.

[ProGunGuy]

ahh thanks for the replies. it seems from the opinions here, i might have been a little overzelous in my thinking.

I will just have to mind my own buisness next time. :)

[motosapiens]

ahh thanks for the replies. it seems from the opinions here, i might have been a little overzelous in my thinking.

I will just have to mind my own buisness next time. :)

I think it's reasonable to suggest that someone point the gun downrange even when working on it. If for no other reason than to prevent arguments/misunderstandings. I think trying to get the person dq'd would probably be overzealous. IMHO, you did the smart thing to mention it, and then seek other opinions on the matter.

[Steve Koski]

I agree with the consensus. Correct the problem. Educate them as to a safer way to handle the gun. Move on.

It is very bad form to get lazy when handling "unloaded guns" and think it is OK to sweep yourself or others. This is how people get ventilated with unloaded guns.

[GrumpyOne]

Grumpy we are talking IDPA

I know, but he was quoting USPSA RULES..

[jmorris]

Where is the 180 rule mentioned in the current IDPA rule book?

In any case, I agree with Gman, they call it a "safe area" not a "safe direction"

[jmorris]

All I found was this on page 6

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

[lc2hl]

This is one of those things I have to shake my head at. From my own experience with Safe Areas in IDPA, that is where you are supposed to work on your gun if need be. The idea of an unloaded firearm and no ammo is meant to ensure safety to everyone at the safe area. Now a live round stuck in some form of battery is another story, and should be dealt with facing a berm only.

From my own experience, a squib is a perfect example of what a safe area is suited for. Someone needs to explain to me how anyone can break down and work (pound out a squib) on any firearm without sweeping themselves. Impossible. Maintenance is the secondary reasons for Safe Areas, third is to holster / un-holster (store) the weapon.

Most ranges require a SO to accompany a shooter to a safe area to deal with issues with their gun. I have seen both gunsmiths and competitors working on firearms in safe areas. I will never have an issue with this if safety is everyone's first priority, as it should be. That is not to say that every competitor is not responsible for everyone's safety, but a little logic and common sense can always be accompanied by a few questions to the individual to ascertain the safety of the situation. Then get back to the match and have fun!

And yes, there is currently NO 180 rule in IDPA, but watch out!!! Soon you will be able to be DQ'd for getting close!!!

[hkguy]

Where is the 180 rule mentioned in the current IDPA rule book?

In any case, I agree with Gman, they call it a "safe area" not a "safe direction"

i dont believe its in the IDPA book, but its a common rule at most ranges. There is either a 180* rule, some indicator of muzzle safe points for a CoF or a combination of both.

[M1911]

A lot of folks have had negligent discharges because they thought the gun was empty. Just as guns that people thought were empty are sometimes not, "the don't have ammo at the safe table" rule doesn't ensure that there is no ammo at the safe table.

In other words, just because they shouldn't have ammo at the safe table doesn't give them a pass to point the gun in an unsafe direction. The whole point of a safe direction is so that if the gun is discharged, no one gets hurt. Safe direction is the final safety measure -- the last layer of safety.

Edited June 24, 2013 by M1911