Spectators Carrying Concealed Ok?

[RangerTrace]

If you are a spectator and you feel the need to show me your concealed weapon, which is now not concealed, I'm going to figure there is something wrong with you and get the MD to come over and straighten it out. I think Kend did the right thing by explaining things and getting the guy in shape. As far as a non sequitor, your non sequitor is my poetic license. If you want to come watch a match with a concealed weapon and I don't know about it-I'm not worried. Personally, I find watching a match really boring if I'm not shooting it. To each his own. If you come to a match where it states at the entrance that this is a cold range , I expect you to lock that gun in the car and leave it there. It's kind of like being on a ball field-the first thing you do is find the ball and keep your eye on it. If you don't you may get hit in the head with it. I almost always watch the shooter, even if out of the corner of my eye-I think most people do. I'm not sure why a match needs armed guards. The only place I have seen that is in Texas at the Larue 3 Gun match. It may have been because the Governor was there. I like police and Texas Rangers, but if they are on regular duty and just hanging out at a match-they are not on the job. It's hard to rationalize. In any case the original post was how to handle a loaded weapon that is not concealed. At a private range. For a spectator. It's a safe sport, if the rules and common sense are followed.

Why do Texas Rangers keep getting pulled into the mix.......

[motosapiens]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

Well, that's one way to keep matches from taking too long, just treat new shooters like dirt for not knowing everything when they show up, and you'll keep the entries down to a manageable level.

We don't have a hundred people at our matches to yell stop, so we would probably use it as a teaching moment to explain our strict safety rules in a way that makes sense, rather than an excuse to drive someone away.

Edited May 22, 2013 by motosapiens

[FightFireJay]

I think this is definitely an issue where CC is common, for the competitor that CC or a spectator. At a cold range where do unload the carry gun? Can't go to the safety area, can't handle a gun anywhere else. At our range people stop outside the gate and unload on the side of the access road.

This is exactly what's wrong with our "safety" procedures. They force us to do things that the rule book thinks is unsafe.

Instead of allowing CC guns hot so long as they stay holstered and concealed, we now make people load and unload in their cars in the parking lot or on the side of the road.

I've never understood why the local range "Ben Avery" allows a hot range, with guns holstered, and is completely safe, yet when an event comes to their venue all of a sudden cold ranges are mandated.

Edited May 22, 2013 by FightFireJay

[motosapiens]

I've never understood why the local range "Ben Avery" allows a hot range, with guns holstered, and is completely safe, yet when an event comes to their venue all of a sudden cold ranges are mandated.

Cold ranges (for competitors) make sense to me. In a sport where people are running very-light triggers, and pushing themselves to the limits of their abilities, and are frequently tweaking and adjusting and cleaning their guns at the safe tables, and thinking almost entirely about performance, it makes sense to take a large part of the possibility for error out of the picture.

OTOH, I could care less about spectators that are carrying concealed. They don't take their guns out at the bar or hockey game or at mcdonalds and do something stupid, so I don't expect them to take their guns out at the range and do something stupid.

For competitors that carry, or for those folks that actually compete with their carry guns, it is common in many places to provide a safe table at/near the range entrance to unload and stow their carry guns. That makes sense to me. As a competitor, I would certainly take advantage of that. As a spectator, I would ignore it the same way I ignore it everywhere else, since such rules carry only the weight of suggestion in my state. (carrying where prohibited by the property owner is not a crime in idaho unless you are outed and refuse to either leave or disarm).

[remoandiris]

Check your link. It does not lead you to where and where you can not carry. This isn't a spitting contest. Ok? I have a problem with spectators carrying concealed. I shoot a lot, a lot of matches where at least 75% of the competitors are law enforcement. Usually federal. And I feel really safe at those matches. Our home range, where Kend and I shoot is a cold range and posted in a lot of places. This is a private range. It's a gray area. I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns. I have enough trouble watching the shooters. I also am not particularly happy about Texas Rangers on duty wandering around while they are on duty with their weapons. Or any police officer. What is the reason? If its curiosity, come when you are off duty. If not, are they on lunch? Are they looking for criminals. Hard to justify. It's a safe sport, when club and USPSA rules are followed.

Nothing wrong with the link when I click on it. Takes me to the Florida statute that covers everything you need to know about concealed carry in Fla. Even lists where you can't carry concealed.

(12)(a) A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:

1. Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05;

2. Any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;

3. Any detention facility, prison, or jail;

4. Any courthouse;

5. Any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;

6. Any polling place;

7. Any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;

8. Any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;

9. Any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;

10. Any elementary or secondary school facility or administration building;

11. Any career center;

12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

13. Any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;

14. The inside of the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or

15. Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

No, this is not a spitting contest at all. But it has spiraled down into a lot of opinions being tossed around. Opinions are like...well, you know the rest. Any one/group who does not want concealed carry on private property has the option to prohibit it in accordance with their state law.

Your first sentence in post #75 is something I agree with. A gun showing inadvertantly, like the wind blowing and exposing the gun, is one thing (and protected by law in Fla). A person purposely showing the gun is completely different.

Edited May 22, 2013 by remoandiris

[Rotorwrench]

Easy...Don't ask, Don't tell. Concealed is freakin' concealed!!!

[Sarge]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

Well, that's one way to keep matches from taking too long, just treat new shooters like dirt for not knowing everything when they show up, and you'll keep the entries down to a manageable level.

We don't have a hundred people at our matches to yell stop, so we would probably use it as a teaching moment to explain our strict safety rules in a way that makes sense, rather than an excuse to drive someone away.

Yeah you're right I treat new shooters like dirt when they pull a loaded gun and point it at people in a crowded venue. And you know what? That has happened once in three plus years. I think any match can handle that rate of attrition. I don't see the logic in making this about how bad I am treating shooters because I have no aversion to DQing somebody.

[bdpaz]

Yeah you're right I treat new shooters like dirt when they pull a loaded gun and point it at people in a crowded venue. And you know what? That has happened once in three plus years. I think any match can handle that rate of attrition. I don't see the logic in making this about how bad I am treating shooters because I have no aversion to DQing somebody.

he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table.

Maybe if you'd initially said that he was pointing it at people this would have gone differently. I tried to ask earlier for more details (and you answered by telling me to figure it out myself) because removing the gun from the holster is significantly different from pointing it at people.

You're wondering how anyone could criticize you for sending a guy home for pointing a loaded gun at a crowd while I (and I suspect some of the others) was at least considering the possibility of an overreaction to someone removing his gun from the holster and controlling it in a safe manner.

[JKSNIPER]

Some time ago I finally decided to go to the local shooting club to see what all this USPSA stuff was about. Was asked if I had a loaded gun on my person by the M.D. ( active duty LEO at the time) and I said "Yes"

Competitor next to me is visibly affected by this answer and asks nervously "Why do you have a loaded gun ?" ( which I thought was a very strange question to be asked by "gun guys" and asked the way it was ...like you'd expect from a librarian or liberal hippie....)

So I answer the guy "Why do I have a loaded gun? 'Cos the unloaded ones don't work so good."

The M.D. (Retired LEO) tells the competitor to calm down and then explains to me their rules about carrying.

I apologize immediately for my ignorance ( I had ZERO experience at USPSA matches and knew NOTHING about the rules) and he escorts me to a spot to unload.

Thats it.

Easily handled and was handled calmly and professionally.

I later ran into the competitor that was so nervous about my carrying and spoke to him about my "wise ass" answer to his inquiry. We had a laugh about it.

[EkuJustice]

In reality the carry protocol most use when arriving at the match is pulling in removing carry gun from holster and place in the carry mode in the glove box under the seat etc then exit the vehicle and do the opposite after entering the vehicle to leave. I have never seen one cleared and loaded up upon someone arriving at the range

[Sarge]

Yeah you're right I treat new shooters like dirt when they pull a loaded gun and point it at people in a crowded venue. And you know what? That has happened once in three plus years. I think any match can handle that rate of attrition. I don't see the logic in making this about how bad I am treating shooters because I have no aversion to DQing somebody.

he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table.

Maybe if you'd initially said that he was pointing it at people this would have gone differently. I tried to ask earlier for more details (and you answered by telling me to figure it out myself) because removing the gun from the holster is significantly different from pointing it at people.

You're wondering how anyone could criticize you for sending a guy home for pointing a loaded gun at a crowd while I (and I suspect some of the others) was at least considering the possibility of an overreaction to someone removing his gun from the holster and controlling it in a safe manner.

There is virtually no way to pull a gun out of a holster, surrounded by people, remove a magazine, etc without sweeping a good portion of those same people. Also, if you read the post I never said I DQ'ed him. I was just a shooter back then. But the end result would be the same if it happened on my watch.

[motosapiens]

I have been muzzled enough by new shooters, old shooters in a bad frame of mind, and morons. I don't want spectators with guns.

That seems like a bit of a bizarre non-sequitur to me. Are you expecting any concealed-carriers to whip out their guns and start playing with them?

Personally, the more law-abiding concealed-carriers there are around me, the happier I am. Perhaps that makes me a redneck or something.

Funny story. We were doing sign up for a match last year when a very "new" looking shooter showed up. Somebody noticed a mag in the gun and before anybody could say a word he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table. We stopped him before he got to the point of racking the gun. Needless to say about a hundred people yelled stop and he thought we were weird and asked if we had never seen a loaded gun before. He said it was his carry gun and it should be loaded. He was DQ'd and went home. Don't recall ever seeing him again and that did not my feelings one bit.

Well, that's one way to keep matches from taking too long, just treat new shooters like dirt for not knowing everything when they show up, and you'll keep the entries down to a manageable level.

We don't have a hundred people at our matches to yell stop, so we would probably use it as a teaching moment to explain our strict safety rules in a way that makes sense, rather than an excuse to drive someone away.

Yeah you're right I treat new shooters like dirt when they pull a loaded gun and point it at people in a crowded venue. And you know what? That has happened once in three plus years. I think any match can handle that rate of attrition. I don't see the logic in making this about how bad I am treating shooters because I have no aversion to DQing somebody.

You're changing your story. Now he 'point(ed) it at people in a crowded venue'?

I wasn't there, so I can only take your word for it, and perhaps the guy was a menace, but perhaps you missed a chance to educate someone. If you don't have clear signs at the range entrance (and maybe you do, and this person ignored them), how is a new shooter supposed to know what the rules are or where to start? Of course even before I ever shot a match, I would be unlikely to unholster a loaded gun at a registration table. Maybe that is a little beyond acceptable, even for a newbie.

Edited May 23, 2013 by motosapiens

[FightFireJay]

Yeah you're right I treat new shooters like dirt when they pull a loaded gun and point it at people in a crowded venue. And you know what? That has happened once in three plus years. I think any match can handle that rate of attrition. I don't see the logic in making this about how bad I am treating shooters because I have no aversion to DQing somebody.

he whipped it out of his IWB holster and proceeded to take the mag out at the registration table.

Maybe if you'd initially said that he was pointing it at people this would have gone differently. I tried to ask earlier for more details (and you answered by telling me to figure it out myself) because removing the gun from the holster is significantly different from pointing it at people.

You're wondering how anyone could criticize you for sending a guy home for pointing a loaded gun at a crowd while I (and I suspect some of the others) was at least considering the possibility of an overreaction to someone removing his gun from the holster and controlling it in a safe manner.

There is virtually no way to pull a gun out of a holster, surrounded by people, remove a magazine, etc without sweeping a good portion of those same people. Also, if you read the post I never said I DQ'ed him. I was just a shooter back then. But the end result would be the same if it happened on my watch.

If there's just a couple square feet of clear ground around my right foot, I can unholster, remove mag, and show clear without flagging anyone but an earthworm.

Now certainly if the guy flagged someone, that's a safety violation. I have to remind myself that not everyone grew up with the benefit of a gun enthusiast farmer for a father or spent time in the Corps.

If handled properly, the guy can be taught to be safe in about 3 minutes. On the other hand, if he's a complete wanker then it won't matter and he shouldn't be there. I can't say which is right for the circumstance (because I wasn't there), but I feel like we get so wrapped up in the rule book that we prevent ourselves from being good ambassadors sometimes.

Edited May 24, 2013 by FightFireJay

[bthoefer]

He wasn't a LEO and I'm assuming he had a permit but he didn't have a problem with the unload thing, he actually spent the entire day pasting and learning. More than some on the squad did...

I did have this thought, this happened in FL so does FL law allow concealed carry at a sporting event or public gathering? I don't remember from the CC classes but I know GA law doesn't so there would be a legal issue there. Or is a shooting match not considered a sporting event?

One quick note about GA carry law.

The restriction against carrying at a public gathering was removed from GA law by SB 308 in 2010.

Georgia Carry

http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/georgias-carry-laws-explained/frequently-asked-questions/

Direct link to the GA statute

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/default.aspx

[jbc98c]

I think this would end up being part of the ranges SOP's (standard operating procedures) USPSA rules don't dictate that a spectator can or can't have a loaded firearm on them.

Being that it is concealed, you can't see it, so you can't do anything about it anyway.