Want to load .223 rem

[rtr]

I want to start loading .223 which I shoot for 3gun, I shoot it in a Colt AR that has a 5.56 chamber. I load on a 550. What dies, etc. do I need to buy? thanks.

[davidwiz]

I would get a Forster or Redding decap/resize die, micrometer seat die and a crimp die. Use the Dillon powder die. Look in Midway or other catalog company.

[Gun Geek]

Get a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I don't like to shoot semi-autos with out a crimp. The chance of a set-back is too high and the consequences can be pretty spectacular. I use the FCD for 223, 30-06 (Garand) and M1 Carbine.

Crimping is not absolutely necessary if you are shooting a bolt gun (although I think the FCD actually improves accuraccy by making the initial pull resistance more consistient).

If you are going to be very careful about picking up and re-using ONLY your own brass, you might be able to neck-size only (I know some guys do this for the AR), but I like to do a full length re-size. I have seen some ARs that eat the same brass over and over, and some that seem to require full length sizing.

[uscbigdawg]

Dillon everything! Don't fork up for the carbide sizing die though. A litte lube and you're good to go (Dillon lube on rifle brass)

The only tools that I use are both the Dillon and JP case gauges. I'm anal as hell about my ammo and gauge everything.

As for brass.....Scharch. $45/1000. As George says...let someone else shag.

After that, good bullets and powder and you got 'er done.

Rich

[ErikW]

Do a search and read up on how I and others (BerKim) accomplish "semi-progressive" rifle loading, because you might want a separate toolhead and an additional die. And maybe a Dillon powered brass trimmer for it.

[EricW]

After discovering just how little contamination will totally trash a steel rifle die, I would never buy another non-carbide rifle die that I planned to use in any volume. Yes, I know that the rest of the world will think I'm an idiot for saying so, but trashing a die the night before a match is hell on earth. The few extra dollars are worth the security.

[rtr]

Ok so just so I'm clear, I've never loaded rifle before.

On a 550, I'm sizing and decapping/priming (depending if I buy primed/sized brass), then dump powder (but not not belling the case), placing the bullet and pushing it to the right length, then does one crimp rifle rounds or not? thanks.

[ErikW]

Whoa, whoa... after sizing they need to be measured and possibly trimmed. That's the big gotcha with "progressive" rifle loading.

In reality, I find that if I'm using a sorted group of brass (say, Winchester from police M4s), either they almost all need to be trimmed or they almost all do not. So that's something I determine when I'm setting up the die to size the cases with the correct cartridge headspace, which follows the same rule of thumb for a group of brass.

With .223 I don't bother loading a group of brass that needs trimming. Most once-fired doesn't. (Except the military brass, which you should buy processed, sized and trimmed.) So I load, fire, and forget.

[sargenv]

For me, I have a large amount of brass that is once fired either military or otherwise and I do have an electric case trimmer. I size and deprime, check the length on several in a batch, if oversized, I trim it all. If I were to run it on a progressive, my press primes in station 2, I'd drop powder in station 3, seat bullet on station 4 and crimp on 5. If I had a 550, I'd seat and crimp on 4. All of my deprime/sizing is done on a single stage Rockchucker. Same with trimming, it's all done as one large batch. Some military brass doesn't need to have the crimp removed, usually it is the brass with the + within a circle that doesn't need to be swaged. I'm finding PMC brass that was sold as mil needs to be swaged, I cull them out and set them aside. It is convenient to get the already processed stuff, but I have all the tools, it just takes some time, and in the fall and winter when I have some free evenings, I can process this stuff myself.

I don't have the 650 plate and accessories for .223. I am using RCBS Small base dies and the Dillon spray on lube. I haven't had any issues. The Dillon lube saves a lot of time for me as I used to do the old lube one case, size, lube one case, size and on and on. It worked ok when loading 100 30-30's for a Contender but gets old fast loading hundreds of .223.

Vince

[uscbigdawg]

Admittedly I don't trim brass. Kind of snobby about it. IF I get a batch that requires trimming, my Dad does it. He likes it, since he gets to break out the power tools (screwdriver) and trim brass all night.

Gotta love him.

Rich

[D.Hayden]

does one crimp rifle rounds or not? thanks.

Some do, some don't. I think George does (that says a lot). Search for .223 crimps, you'll see the opinions.

I don't, I think they're held tight enough without it..

Like Erik said, buy an extra 550 toolhead (for $12). I use the Dillon dies, just not all togehter on the same toolhead. On the loading toolhead, I use an RCBS neck-sizer only, the Dillon is on the seperate size/deprime

Buy some Dillon lube, don't try to use One-Shot (again some do, you can search on those) on the size/decap stage.

Powder... endless searches here. H-335, H-332, others..

Bullets... do a search based on your twist (I only use 55's so far - for cheap 55's search on Hornadys and Winchester - my 68's I haven't loaded yet)

Brass - buy the first set of Brass, from Scharch http://www.scharch.com that'll get you by a lot of problems, and let you get used to it. Buy the 100% processed, you won't regret it - get into the swage/trimming later.

[old john]

I use scharch 100% brass. 25.2 grains H-322 under Serria 52 match king. Three shots make one large hole. For popping paper in close I use Nosler 40 over 23.2 h-322. Old John

[rtr]

Ok so what kind of results will I get with the following:

100% processed scharch brass.

No resizing (I'm assuming Scharch does this)

Dillon powder die, dillon seating die, dillon crimp die

So drop powder, seat the bullet, crimp the round, thats all.

Will that work or will my rounds suck, am I missing something here?

[EricW]

Ok so what kind of results will I get with the following:

100% processed scharch brass.

No resizing (I'm assuming Scharch does this)

Dillon powder die, dillon seating die, dillon crimp die

You'll get sub MOA (with the right bullet) just like the rest of us using that setup.

Hornady 55gr. FMJ's seem to be the best bang for the buck.

69 gr. Noslers from Powder Valley are probably your next best bet.

Varget is kind of a pain to meter, but everyone swears by it. I've had very good results with H322.

[D.Hayden]

Start with the Scharch, just start loading.

I do have a neck size/deprime die in station 1, just to make soure the neck opening didn't get dented.

For short courses (probably under 200) you may be able to use Winchester 55 FMJ, cheapest thing out there. They're still sub MOA for me... Use the expensive stuff for the long shots

I did go with the Redding Comp Seating die, really just because it lets me change from 52's, to 55's to 68's so quickly.

And like I said earlier, I don't crimp.

[TBF]

I also do not crimp 223.

If the case is getting a firm grip on the bullet ( neck .002 - .003 SMALLER than the loaded round ) you will have to really whack the crap out of the bullet to seat it deeper.

The best quality cheap dies ( 2 die rifle under $20.00 ) I have bought are the Hornady. They actually work really well.

I have never loaded rifle on a progressive due to my irrational fear of not trimming rifle brass after sizing. Like I said, this is irrational and anal retentive on my part. I also like to get the brass shavings from trimming out of the case before loading it.

The last batch of LC once fired I got from Midway had some cases .030 over max trim length after sizing, this and other things made a Gracey trimmer a required purchase.

Gracey rocks ! Like a Hum - Vee that does 9 seconds in the quarter mile !

Definately let someone else ream the crimp out of the primer pocket , life is way too short.

Just my .o2

Travis F.

[George]

I do crimp .223 and swear by it. I use the Dillon taper crimper and set it to just flatten the case to the bullet. I also use a Lyman VLD reamer to put a very shallow leade on the inside of the case mouth which when crimped just flattens the taper to the case instead of indenting the bullet with the edge of the case mouth. This method has proved to be just as accurate as no crimp and provides insurance against bullet setback which can drastically effect pressure. In fact, I believe the slight crimp I use standardizes the case mouth release tension and actually reduces the SD of the load over a chrono. I only do the VLD ream routine with brass that is going to get a 69, or 77gr Sierra MatchKing in it. For 55gr ball I don’t care if the crimp is beautiful, or not. I just want a crimp PERIOD I still get under one MOA with 55gr FMJ this way (bulk Hornady BT’s with a cannelure).

BTW, I would never crimp in the seating die, very bad juju if you do that. The bullet is still being seated as the case mouth is being turned in and a collapsed case can result at worst. At best it’s a lousy crimp that shaves the jacket as the last bit of seating is done.

As far as dies go, Dillon all the way except for the seating die where I heartily recommend the Redding competition micrometer seating die. It doesn’t mark my 69 & 77 gr Matchkings with a little ring like the Dillon seating die does.

I use the Dillon non-carbide size die with the Dillon spray lube and cannot find any fault with the result.

For 55gr ball, I use Scharch 1x 100% processed brass right outa da box and don’t bother sizing. But I do keep a size die in the first station with it backed out enough so the the expander ball actually goes in-n-out which makes sure there are no case mouth dings.

For my SMK tipped .223 loads, I actually re-size the Scharch 1x 100% on my RockChucker to get the headspace perfect for my JP rifle. The trim length is not affected by this extra step much and I only trim after I fire the cases (if I get any back). To set headspace, I use the L.E. Wilson SAAMI ammo gauge and use a fired case from the JP to find the point on the Wilson gauge headspace step where the freshly sized case is 1-3 thousandths lower than the head on the fired case. This is how to verify headspace. Any other method that doesn’t compare a fired case from the chamber in question is just guesswork.

I find the Scharch 1x 100% is at the top of the Wilson gauge headspace step as it comes and only run it un-sized for my junk 55gr ball loads.

I would definitely get a separate toolhead for rifle including a powder measure and just leave it set. I actually have a toolhead and powder measure for each different bullet weight I use in .223.

BTW, a nosedive into the locking lugs is “always“ going to set back an uncrimped round. Clear the jam and manage to chamber that round and the pressure is going to be through the roof.

I used to not crimp all my High Power .223 for what I believed was more accuracy. Whenever I pulled one from a chamber after it was stripped from a mag and chambered by a bolt I would put it aside and take it home. After measuring before and after, I would always notice a very slight reduction in OAL compared to before it was chambered. Now I crimp everything .223 with a Dillon taper crimp die.

And yes, the expander ball was leaving the case mouth a couple thousandths smaller than the bullet, it still wasn’t enough.

--

Regards,

Edited March 16, 2005 by George

[George]

BTW, it may not be the best .223 powder going, but I like WW 748 under 55gr ball. 27.5 get’s me over 3050 in most 20 inchers and it holds about one MOA in all my AR’s using a bulk Hornady FMJBT.

--

Regards,

[D.Hayden]

George, have you ever compared shooting "raw" Scharch brass and trimmed for group size?

And the crimping, this doesn't sound like something I can measure, you're just crimping enough to take off the edge?

[George]

Hi Dave,

I don’t trim 100% Scharch as it comes because it is right at 1.75” in length which is perfect. If I get any back from matches I shoot, I re-size it after firing and then it always gets trimmed. I go to almost all lost brass matches nowadays and I haven’t re-loaded anything fired in my JP for a few years now.

My practice brass is the Scharch brass that doesn’t pass my L.E. Wilson ammo gauge (I check all my 100% processed brass in a gauge before deciding what I will load it for). About 1 in 5 doesn’t pass the gauge (can you say SAW) and that gets loaded as practice 55 ball which I shoot-n-leave for folks who don’t know no better ;-)

As far as crimp goes, It is very important that the cases be at, or be trimmed to the exact same length as the crimp amount is very dependent on case length. I use a combination of methods for setting the amount of crimp.

For my Sierra MatchKing crimping, I use the Lyman VLD reamer on a case to put a shallow bevel on the inside of the case mouth and an RCBS deburring tool to take the edge off the outside lip of the case mouth. I then seat a MatchKing in the case and run it up into the crimp die with the die backed out to the point of no contact. I then hand thread the die in until it just makes contact, lower the case and turn the die in an eighth to a quarter turn. Then with nothing else in the press, I raise the case into the crimp die and check to make sure amount of pressure I feel as the crimp is done is negligible, but just noticeable. If you feel a lot of crimp happening here, it’s too much. If you look at a properly prepped case after seating a bullet and before crimping, you should see a very small gap between the case mouth and the bullet if you did the VLD ream properly. After the proper crimp is done, this gap should be closed up and the outside of the case mouth should not show any appreciable brightening from crimp pressure squeezing the brass, otherwise the crimp will be too much.

Properly done, this amount of crimp has no detrimental effect on accuracy (in fact it tightens the SD) and the cartridges can be hammered into wood like a nail and the bullet still won’t set back (don’t try this with a primed and charged case).

For junk 55 gr ball crimping, I only use the RCBS deburring tool on the outside of the case mouth to remove the little lip left on the 100% Scharch brass from trimming. If you don’t remove this lip, the crimp will be very inconsistent. I set the crimp using the quarter turn method and check it by the feel method outlined earlier.

BTW, I haven’t checked trimmed vs un-trimmed for accuracy using the Scharch, But way back when I first started loading .223 for NRA High Power (1987). I ran a batch of new WW brass for 3 firings without trimming and found my groups growing in size until I got a Gracey and did the dirty to the cases. After that, the group sizes stayed the same for the life of those cases. My rule on trimming is “If you fire and size it, trim it” PERIOD

I hope this info is of some help.

--

Regards.

[BigDave]

I'm looking at the cost/benefit of reloading .223 for my AR now that 3-gun is a reality for me. So, for general short range practice rounds and local matches (<100 yd):

Scharch 1X Brass: $45/1000

Win SRP: $16/1000

Powder: $52/1000

Bullets: $45/1000

Component cost: $158/1000 for 55 gr ball type loads. Not a whole lot of savings compared to Winchester White Box, PMC for Federal AE. But...once you start talking about premium bullets (50 gr Nosler, etc), then the real difference shows and realoading results in a substantial cost savings.

[George]

For 55gr ball, you are exactly right. You can find good factory ball for $135 to $165 a thousand and at that price, the work of re-loading isn’t worth it. When you start talking about match grade projectiles, then you are best off re-loading. I can crank out a round that holds under half MOA (if the rifle will) with an SMK 69 or 77 in it for about 17 and a half cents a round. That is just about half what Federal and Black Hills want for the match grade .223 they sell and my match grade fodder outshoot theirs every time (in my rifles anyway).

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Regards,

[D.Hayden]

Very cool George.. thanks again..

If I'm reading this right, you do check the brass direct from Scharch, and those that don't meet go to practice ammo?

Went back and searched on the gauges.. I'll order the Wilson too...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ilson,and,gauge

[George]

Yep, I check it all in my Wilson gauge and any that fails to gravity drop in fully and out get put aside for shoot-n-leave junk ball. My guess is that the .223 SAW’s (Squad Automatic Weapons) are responsible for the bulged LC I run across as they have enormous chambers to aid function in full auto firing. Considering that the Scharch brass is military leavings, this makes sense to me.

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Regards,

[Gun Geek]

I do crimp .223 and swear by it. I use the Dillon taper crimper and set it to just flatten the case to the bullet. I also use a Lyman VLD reamer to put a very shallow leade on the inside of the case mouth which when crimped just flattens the taper to the case instead of indenting the bullet with the edge of the case mouth. This method has proved to be just as accurate as no crimp and provides insurance against bullet setback which can drastically effect pressure. In fact, I believe the slight crimp I use standardizes the case mouth release tension and actually reduces the SD of the load over a chrono. I only do the VLD ream routine with brass that is going to get a 69, or 77gr Sierra MatchKing in it. For 55gr ball I don’t care if the crimp is beautiful, or not. I just want a crimp PERIOD I still get under one MOA with 55gr FMJ this way (bulk Hornady BT’s with a cannelure).

George:

Have you tried the FCD for the crimping - trim length really isn't important, and since it is a collet design, it won't crush case necks. I have had very good results, and I actually crimp all of my rifle stuf f- even the 308 for the bolt gun. Just as you said, I have seen SD go down significantly.

BTW, I haven’t checked trimmed vs un-trimmed for accuracy using the Scharch, But way back when I first started loading .223 for NRA High Power (1987). I ran a batch of new WW brass for 3 firings without trimming and found my groups growing in size until I got a Gracey and did the dirty to the cases. After that, the group sizes stayed the same for the life of those cases. My rule on trimming is “If you fire and size it, trim it” PERIOD

What about the RCBS X dies? Ever tried them? Most of my dies are X dies, but it hasn't worked out that I actually use them that way.

What about small base dies? My 223 dies are SBs, and I've never had any problems with feeding.

Geek