pskys2 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Bubber, did that come out right on the 8 shot friendly stages Chris did better with his 6 shot than you? Can see where you did better on the 6 shot stages, due to 2 extra rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 snipped...... As a test to see how it runs and is received by the shooters, I think we ought to consider doing the next one as 6 shot friendly. To me that means not to control the total number of loads required by either capacity, but to limit the number of forced standing reloads to the same for both capacities. Just have to pay attention to the setup. snipped... Wish I was not so far away - sounds like y'all had a great time. Next time try a 6 neutral match. I think you'll find the competition even tighter. You could even let the SS guys in on the action. Screw those bottom feeders! I want them to come out, but with a revolver, not an auto!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Bubber, did that come out right on the 8 shot friendly stages Chris did better with his 6 shot than you? Can see where you did better on the 6 shot stages, due to 2 extra rounds. I don't think Chris nor I were ready for the try. We just decided to do it when we walked through the first stage.. The two stages where it was 6 shot friendly, I think Chris missed the steel and caused him a reload. I pushed it but was relaxed as I thought I would not have to take a standing reload. On the 8 shot friendly stages I just pushed hard and paid for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogan Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I can't speak for anyone else, so I'll just interpret my scores for both guns. I tanked stage one... with both guns!!! Since it was a six shot classifier, there really isn't too much to say. You either get it right, or you mess it up. For me rounds in the gun didn't matter, so I don't think it makes a good sample to draw from. Stage 2 is a different matter. I shot it well with both guns. Perfectly exicuted, no messed up plans. The six went perfectly as a six shooter and the eight shooter i shot as an eight shooter, not as a six with extra reloads. I was 4 seconds faster with the eight shooter. The caveat is: since the stage was eight shot neutral, I was forced to do two standing reloads with the 6 shooter. Guys, I understand stage planning and I did not make any mistakes that caused me to abort my original plan and make an extra reload. There was no way to shoot it without the standing reloads. So two standing reloads at 2 seconds per reload and... wha la, i just shot the same time with both guns. So for me, stage design is still the biggest factor in the 6 vs 8 debate. A note on reloads- for me in this match, I only fumbled one reload with the 625, which was actually a failure to extract the moon. I was slower and not as consistent with the eight shooter. I strongly believe that the reload difference is a factor in this debate. The 625 loads faster and more consistently than the 627. Stage three: I shot well with the six and lost my mind with the 8. I didnt realized the popper at the start of the stage was falling so I shot it again (unnecessarily), which caused a standing reload (it was the only place where it was visible), which messed up my count for the rest of the stage and I continued to loose my mind for the rest of the stage. Since I decided to loose my mind with the 8 shooter, I can't really compare the two, because I shot the stage really well with the 6. Stage 4 was similiar to stage 3, (i didn't shoot either well) but there is one thing i can't explain. I only got 90 points, which implies that I missed a target or hit the no shoot. I know I didn't do either one, since I walked the stage while it was scored, so I can't explain the big loss of points. No matter, I didn't shoot this stage well. I mention the poor quality of the shooting because it's pointless to compare a good run with one gun to a poor run with another gun. To have a good comparison, a given shooter needs to shoot both guns with the same quality performance. If not, then incorrect conclusions will be drawn from the results. I am begining to think more like Rob, there is less difference between the guns that we think. Especially with good stage design that eliminates forced standing reloads with the 6 shooter. I, like everyone else, had a great time shooting and look forward to the next outlaw match. That killer flag will fly again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Bubber, did that come out right on the 8 shot friendly stages Chris did better with his 6 shot than you?Can see where you did better on the 6 shot stages, due to 2 extra rounds. You read the part when I crushed him by 8% He spotted me 49 points on our first stage but I did take 4 of the 6 stages. The biggest gap one one we both performed well in was one that was 8 shot neutral. he got me pretty good on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelie Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 snipped...... As a test to see how it runs and is received by the shooters, I think we ought to consider doing the next one as 6 shot friendly. To me that means not to control the total number of loads required by either capacity, but to limit the number of forced standing reloads to the same for both capacities. Just have to pay attention to the setup. snipped... Wish I was not so far away - sounds like y'all had a great time. Next time try a 6 neutral match. I think you'll find the competition even tighter. You could even let the SS guys in on the action. Screw those bottom feeders! I want them to come out, but with a revolver, not an auto!!!!! Well yeah... But first you have to have a match to suit the six shooters. Most revolvers are six shooters. I'd be happy shooting my six shooter against eight shooters of any type. And even happier doing it on a six neutral stage. Otherwise I'm back to shooting for myself while less capable shooters beat me --automatically-- because we're shooting 8 shot stages and they bought guns that hold more bullets than mine. So its just back to me and the one other six shooter guy who shows up on the third Sunday of every 7th month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Interesting stuff! Basic stats on overall match points... pf | mean sd cv mean -------+---------------------------------------- Major | 228.3768 64.36868 .281853 228.3768 Minor | 216.7606 73.63355 .3396999 216.7606 -------+---------------------------------------- Total | 220.9622 69.9367 .3165098 220.9622 ------------------------------------------------ Generally looks good for major - notice TGOs huge score on the minor plot dragging up the mean. I can't wait to dig into the stage results, it'll give me something to do on the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'd rather compare hit factors, figure out who was shooting major on each stage, add their cumulative HF's together, then figure a mean HF for major. Rinse and repeat for the 8 shot minor guys. compare cumulative HF means major vs. minor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Summary for variables: hf by categories of: pf (PF) pf | mean -------+---------- major | 3.134415 minor | 3.096548 -------+---------- Total | 3.110244 ------------------ . by stg, sort : tabstat hf, by(pf) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> stg = 1 Summary for variables: hf by categories of: pf (PF) pf | mean -------+---------- major | 2.740724 minor | 3.184963 -------+---------- Total | 3.024281 ------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> stg = 2 Summary for variables: hf by categories of: pf (PF) pf | mean -------+---------- major | 3.827941 minor | 3.810687 -------+---------- Total | 3.816928 ------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> stg = 3 Summary for variables: hf by categories of: pf (PF) pf | mean -------+---------- major | 3.003765 minor | 2.769877 -------+---------- Total | 2.854474 ------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -> stg = 4 Summary for variables: hf by categories of: pf (PF) pf | mean -------+---------- major | 2.965229 minor | 2.620663 -------+---------- Total | 2.745294 ------------------ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer377 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 That's a little misleading though, showing major with higher HFs an almost all stages. The implied assumption is that the samples are comparable, but they aren't. Lots of minor shooters, some in the lower classifications drag the mean down. . tab pf PF | Freq. Percent Cum. ------------+----------------------------------- major | 68 36.17 36.17 minor | 120 63.83 100.00 ------------+----------------------------------- Total | 188 100.00 A little more apples-apples comparison would be to limit it to the people who shot both. ----------------------------------- | PF name | major minor -----------------+----------------- Brethour,Richard | 4.40198 4.3557 Caudill,Paul | 2.6466 3.71823 Drake,Larry | 3.08195 3.72225 Krushak,Scott | 2.86427 3.59982 Leatham,Rob | 5.42037 6.30755 Perkinson,Brad | 2.46637 3.73195 Rodriguez,John | 3.31503 3.9792 Schrock,Brian | 3.44648 4.4754 Travis,Mark | 2.23507 2.04142 Warren,Rudy | 2.70322 3.76205 ----------------------------------- Only 2 people shot better with major (and/or on first run) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Let's see if I can make sense of this name Major HF Minor HF % change Brethour 4.40198 4.3557 -1.05% Caudi;; 2.6466 3.71823 40.49% Drake 3.08195 3.72225 20.78% Krushak 2.86427 3.59982 25.68% Leatham 5.42037 6.30755 16.37% Perkinson 2.46637 3.73195 51.31% Rodriguez 3.31503 3.9792 20.04% Schrock 3.4648 4.4754 29.17% travis 2.23507 2.04142 -8.66% warren 2.70322 3.73205 38.06% Leatham's score increased by 16% over his major score. The other shooters that showed and increase was from 20% up to 51% Certainly more data is needed and a various stage design should be disected to see if the 8 shot has an advantage over 6 shot stages. ONe might try some 9 shot arrays to see if there some difference as it would allow the 6 shot to push as well as the 8 shot. Knowing that the 9 shot array could be illegal in USPSA at this point with out having a different position to engage the 9th shot. Let the wheels turn a little more. Sort of a pun. later rdd Edited to add, I hate the way I cannot get the data to stay in a readable format. Edited February 21, 2013 by Bubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelie Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The missing factor from the above and otherwise excellent statistical analysis: Real men shoot major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Real men shoot major. But what if those major .45s look like little lipsticks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I gotta get some of those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Real men shoot major. But what if those major .45s look like little lipsticks? Who's bullet is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Who's bullet is that? They're a hard polymer coated bulllet from 2 Palms Shooter Supplies (2palmsusa.com) in blue, green, purple and red. They were mentioned in one of the reloading threads so I though I'd try them out. In addition to not exactly looking as bad ass as I had imagined, they don't load well in a revolver as they are kind of a round nose semi wadcutter with a flat edge where they jump to full diameter. I'm going to try more of a roll crimp to see if that will help them drop in better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Who's bullet is that? They're a hard polymer coated bulllet from 2 Palms Shooter Supplies (2palmsusa.com) in blue, green, purple and red. They were mentioned in one of the reloading threads so I though I'd try them out. In addition to not exactly looking as bad ass as I had imagined, they don't load well in a revolver as they are kind of a round nose semi wadcutter with a flat edge where they jump to full diameter. I'm going to try more of a roll crimp to see if that will help them drop in better. I've used some other coated bullets of that design and had the same problem. With Taper they pulled easier than even Jacketed and with a Roll over the edge they tended to telescope into the case. Didn't work to Roll Crimp into the old grease groove either. But they do look cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I've used some other coated bullets of that design and had the same problem. With Taper they pulled easier than even Jacketed and with a Roll over the edge they tended to telescope into the case. Didn't work to Roll Crimp into the old grease groove either. But they do look cool! Oh well, I just bought 1000 so it won't take long to use it them up. And maybe the manly struggle to drop them into the cylinder will help make up for the girly look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I'm way too simple to understand all that data. Did I still shoot better with the minor gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Mike, just came from Frank Glenn, had him install trigger stop on the newest 625. Watch out sucka!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Mike, just came from Frank Glenn, had him install trigger stop on the newest 625. Watch out sucka!!! (sigh) It's just so sad, watching these poor guys who think they can buy success with hi-tech gizmos like trigger stops..... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koppi Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Great Stuff! I hope to keep following this topic until the snow melts and we get a chance to try a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Mike, just came from Frank Glenn, had him install trigger stop on the newest 625. Watch out sucka!!! (sigh) It's just so sad, watching these poor guys who think they can buy success with hi-tech gizmos like trigger stops..... ;-) Bet he's already gone with a hi tech Sighting System, about the only thing left would be either a Big But or a Griffin Special Grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 He needs a bubberized grip...makes Matts look factory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 For those of you in in the PHX Area, Scott Durkin's IPSC 101 match this thursday is 6 round neutral (he says just by coincidence, didn't intend it to be). I figure a good chance to test 6 major v 8 minor on a more level COF than our last experiment. We can't do the Outlaw Revo Match after Steve's Match as it is cancelled due to the 3 gun. Go to Riopractical.com for info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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