Moving targets at the 2004 Nationals

[Flexmoney]

I think the movers at the Nationals demonstrated that most of us who are involved in running club matches, fail to set movers correctly to provide practice for the Nationals.

I can't say that is the case for me. Two of my local clubs have some of the hardest movers I've seen anywhere.

Let me put it this way...

The speed and distance of some of the movers didn't allow for many (most) of the shooters to know if their shot connected or not. I saw that Master and Grand Master level shooters were unable to call thier shots. I just don't know if that is the shooting test we want to present?

Just my opinion.

[Nik Habicht]

The speed and distance of some of the movers didn't allow for many (most) of the shooters to know if their shot connected or not. I saw that Master and Grand Master level shooters were unable to call thier shots. I just don't know if that is the shooting test we want to present?

Just my opinion.

I'm a middlin' C-class Shooter --- but I like shooting Alphas, as you've observed. I had two misses on movers --- one on the spinner on Stage 16, and one on the right bobber on Stage 5. I wasn't looking in the right place, for the spinners on 16. Thanks for teaching me where to look before we shot the ones on Stage 4.

The bobber on Stage 5 was a complete surprise, because I shot two rounds at it as it was rising, and I thought I had a good sight picture. After shooting the right bobber, I went back to put an additional round on the left bobber, which I'd already engaged with two rounds, because I had a bad sight picture on it on the second shot. That was the morning though where I shot like I was asleep --- and I don't remember seeing many targets that day.

I thought that the toughest moving targets were the swingers that were pivoting from the top --- and I was able to call whether or not I hit the target on those. On the one on Stage 3, I distinctly remember seeing the head swing through my sight picture as I fired, and deciding to shoot two more rounds after dropping the gun lower, to engage the body.

I reject the notion that we are not capable of calling our shots on targets this tough --- we might not now be capable of calling Alphas, but I believe we are capable of calling hits or misses. With time and practice I believe we will be able to call shots more specifically on these targets as well, i.e. we'll know that we most likely shot Alphas, and certainly nothing worse than a C. I think it's a valid test --- and one that's going to motivate me to sharpen my mover skills some more.....

[ErikW]

I got a static between opening the door and getting both hits on the drop turner of stage 19, but I thought about it. On stage 2, I decided to go straight from the activating popper to the flopper (Max trap) because it was so fast and so many good shooters had taken a no shoot, some also with a Miss. Risk vs. reward: 25 points down for misjudging the Max trap, or no-penalty for misjudging the drop turner. Know your skills and plan accordingly.

[Ken Kwiat]

Hey Flex,

My .02 -- I think we talked some about these at the range but I'll go on the record.

The bobbers, drop turners, pop-outs, and sliders were all normal fare -- nothing that we haven't seen at Natls before and I would expect to all levels of competitors and divisions to be OK with those. Yea, that left bobber wasn't visible long enough and it forced me to alter my plan slightly, i.e., more conservative as I took the close static going to the left side of the barricade, activating steel, other steel, left bobber, right bobber. Plenty of folks took the close static after the activating steel and got it just fine, it was a risk I didn't want to take with the long swing back to the bobbers.

Overall, I thought the swinger speed and distance at last year's Natls (esp. Limited) were quite a bit harder.

The top-down swingers were pretty quick but at a reasonable distance. The bigger problem to me was that you had better get your sight/dot ready "on your spot" as you just didn't get much visible anticipation time. No doubles for me on those & did take an insurance shot on one when I couldn't call the hit (didn't need it but...).

The wheeling dervishes were a different story -- they scared the crap out of me. I got good hits but I paid the time penalty in aiming really hard. And, that was with a dot -- I'm sure they were quite a bit tougher with iron sights. Having that steel no-shoot on 16 added to the anxiety. They were a challenge and I suspect that's exactly why they were there. I've never been a fan of the dervishes and even if I practiced them, I'm not sure my opinion would change much.

Won't these be kaput when the new rule book goes into effect?

Ken

[Wakal]

I did not think that any of the moving targets were particularly difficult. The "spinning target" array was positively glacial compared to the Coleman Windmill with its window-sash weight and pulley system

I liked the top-mounted swingers, and will probably have to badger everyone into building some for our range. We have 22 swingers, but they are all bottom-mounted. Well, 27 swingers if you count the five old ones

Alex

[mactiger]

Know your skills and plan accordingly.

Excellent advice, Erik (and Pat and Nik).

It's the National Championship, guys--you should expect difficult shots and moving targets that you haven't seen before.

As for the windmills being kaput with the new rules: if you are thinking that the 90 degree prohibition will make these obsolete, it ain't so. That applies to static targets only.

Lastly, see this rule: (emphasis mine)

1.1.6 Difficulty – IPSC matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to non shooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor's height and physical build.

Tough shots are just that--tough shots. It doesn't matter what division you are shooting, nor how many "insurance shots" the big boys decide to take. I think sometimes when you are pushing the time envelope, you might need to hedge your bets a bit, hence the need for insurance shots. Some people who can turn it back a click seemed to do fine with their hits here. Accuracy still counts.

Just my .02

Troy

[Nolan]

Having that steel no-shoot on 16 added to the anxiety.

Several shooters after I had shot stage 16 I was helping tape, set steel, paint, etc... and heard the RO call 2 No-Shoot penalties on the Windmills steel No-Shoots. Yikes! I hadn't even realized they WERE No-Shoots while I was shooting. That probably says a lot for my focus and state of mind. Now the question is whether that was good or bad?

Nolan

[Turtle]

How did I not see this thread earlier? Well, I know I'm joining in late (as usual) but I'll chime in anyway.

Flex, in a word, yes, I would have to agree with you that there were some relatively tough shots on movers. Personally I'm glad that there were. Even though I had 3-Alpha 1-Mike on both sets of propeller targets and a couple D's on some of the other movers! It pushes you to higher limits when you have those tough shots. It's not that the hits can't be obtained. It's how much time are you willing to spend to make absolutely sure that they're there? I've routinely hit steel chest plates at 200 yrds with my duty Glock, but I don't want to have to do it under time in a match. Maybe tough movers isn't the best way to test the upper limits of the top shooters, maybe that should be done in other ways so all the other shooters don't get too frustrated. I don't know....good post though, Flex.

[MasterLefty]

In each shooting area, there were enough stationary targets so that every ability level could decide how hard they wanted to push the envelope.

My only gripe is to Wayne Miller. Wayne you could have set up at least one stage so that you shot the activator on entering the area and worked across the array and left. But nooo, you had to place everything opposite.

It was a good match and Wayne did a good job stringing all of the activators.

The only reason I didn't get two hits on the drop turner on stage 19 was because I was too busy making up a D hit on one of the statics before I shot the drop turner.

Kenny

[Flexmoney]

Folks, I am not against tough targets...not at all. I rather enjoy them. And, I am for as much choice as when can fit into a stage....I love choice and freestyle shooting.

Personally...I did just fine on the movers at the Nationals (I shoot tough movers all the time at the local level). But, I did make some observations, and I want to share them here.

Hopefully this thread has raised some awareness. And, hopefully...in the quest to make a stage tough for the GM's...we don't make the stage too tough for others.

Thanks for the discussion.

[mcoliver]

Does someone have vid clips of these movers...would like to see...

We put our movers between 10 and 30m...what was the average at the nats?

Nolan has the (almost) complete hosercam footage over at his SITE.

Reading through some comments about "being lucky" with the swingers getting a hit, I can't help but remember a line said in a movie once: "Do not confuse luck with skill."

Nolan's footage was the closest I can get to seeing how things look like in your Nationals (big thanks Nolan ).

Pretty interesting about that drop tuner activated by the door opening (Stage 19). Did somebody really see anybody nailling 2A's on a static and another 2 A's on the drop turner? From Nolan's footage, the lost time to setup (door opening then re-acquire grip) would have been really close to the time for the turner to turn. Getting a static before the turner would have been, well, really pushing it.

[Nolan]

Mcoliver,

You're welcome!

The turner on Stage 19 was somewhat dependent on how hard/fast you opened the door. I failed to note that the activator cable had very little slack while I was taping targets before shooting. Yanking the door open hard activated the turner very quickly and pulled my weak hand way out of position. Other shooters who didn't try to pull the door off the hinges had more time.

Nolan

[Nik Habicht]

Yanking the door open hard activated the turner very quickly and pulled my weak hand way out of position. Other shooters who didn't try to pull the door off the hinges had more time.

Nolan

Nolan,

Thank you! Even after the nats are over, I learn something new.....

[Patrick Sweeney]

Sorry, spent too much time getting doors open quckly in real life to start tuning my "door opening response initiation sequence" to delay the activation of drop-turners, swingers, etc.

I yank what I yank, and deal with what happens. If that adds a few tenths to my overall time, then I guess I'll have to make it up someplace else. (Like my glacial draws.)

[reneet]

I watched Kay come into that door shooting the target on the left and she was actually waiting on the drop turner. That's when I decided I would do the same thing. We both only got one A on it since it was so fast. If I had it to do again think I'd transition to the drop turner and shoot 3 as soon as I got there.

[Ron Ankeny]

I honestly believe at the local level the last thing we need in course design are shots so difficult as to cause the less developed shooters to zero stages. In order to promote growth, any decent shooter needs to be able to make the shot and let the timer sort things out. Unfortunately, that concept often times manifests itself in the form of hoser courses with little clumps over here, a clump over there, etc. I have accepted that fact and I go along.

Even though I was not at the nationals, I really do believe at Level III matches, the last thing any shooter should complain about it the difficulty of a shot as long as it is within reason. I have never, ever, seen a shot on an IPSC course of fire that a shooter who can shoot a group, has a grasp of the fundamentals, and decent technique, couldn't make barring some gosh awful contorted position.

The dumbing down of America has gone far enough. Leave the tough stuff in the Nationals.

[Ken Kwiat]

I agree, great post that has generated good discussion.

To Troy - thanks for the 90 degree clarification on the new rules. I was going off antecdotal information. Also, I agree that we need to keep Natls hard.

It really did add separation within the field. As I was on the squad following the Open SuperSquad, it was good watching how they shot the hairy mover stages. For example, I think Eric and Max were the only ones that got doubles off on the first top-down swinger. On the second one, I believe Max went for it but had a mike (only one?) and Eric executed really well. I also believe that KC got three shots off on the second one -- that's humbling but great to see.

It's a risk-reward world and these guys should be rewarded for executing on the risk that their ability and confidence allows.

On the Stage 19 DT: I liked the fact that if you agressively opened the activating door quickly and fully that you weren't waiting for the DT. Given that, I went DT, then right static, then left static while backing away -- it worked out well to not stay put in that doorway too long.

[Nik Habicht]

I honestly believe at the local level the last thing we need in course design are shots so difficult as to cause the less developed shooters to zero stages. In order to promote growth, any decent shooter needs to be able to make the shot and let the timer sort things out. Unfortunately, that concept often times manifests itself in the form of hoser courses with little clumps over here, a clump over there, etc. I have accepted that fact and I go along.

Ron,

I agree. Part of what made the movers tough at the Nats though, was that on several stages you'd have one position with a static, two activating poppers and two movers. In those cases shooters had to make choices according to their ability levels --- some could shoot both activators followed by moth movers, others had to take them individually. You can also set up a mover heavy stage by having a number of them disappear --- that way the miss penalties go away --- and by adding statics in the vicinity. That way, better shooters can knock down the activator, take one or more statics, and then the mover, while the newer shooters take a little longer by not shooting anything between activator and mover.....

I shot a disappearing dropturner at last year's FGN that had to be at 15-20 yards. While I was stressed by it during the walkthrough, I found that I had enough time after hitting the activator to pivot to it and set up to hit it twice while it was visible. Other's took other targets in between. As long as there are options --- and as long as some of the more experienced shooters offer to help newer shooters dope out a game plan, I don't think there's anymore of a likelihood of shooters zeroing the stage than they would have on a complex static stage....

[Sestock]

One thing that we noticed was that the windmill on stage 16 was not consistent in how it spun. It had to be fixed halfway through the stage.

[ima45dv8]

One thing that we noticed was that the windmill on stage 16 was not consistent in how it spun. It had to be fixed halfway through the stage.

Yep, I forgot about that. I was offered a reshoot because it was spinning at a noticeably slower pace than it had for other shooters on our squad (and I foolishly said, "Yes").

[Dead Buff]

One thing that we noticed was that the windmill on stage 16 was not consistent in how it spun.  It had to be fixed halfway through the stage.

Yep, I forgot about that. I was offered a reshoot because it was spinning at a noticeably slower pace than it had for other shooters on our squad (and I foolishly said, "Yes").

That would be an I D 10 T error....but the RIGHT thing to do....

[chuckbradley]

There may be a thread on this somewhere but I dont think the windmills are legal targets in that they dont stop in the same place when the come to rest.

Personally I didnt have a problem. I activated them as soon as I could then shot them last when they were a little slower. Although I did well on that stage I thought it was one of the worst of the match. The best one was the one where you climbed up into the fort with the movers. Great stage!

[pacifistwitharifle]

Just FYI... I 'think' I probably had more Mikes on my left static (the one with the no-shoot), than I had on my swinger (which looked fast to me)...

um this is off topic but i've seen this term "mike" several times on the forum and not being a competitive shooter i have no idea what it means. Is it poking fun at some shooter on here or is it really something i should know and have just missed along the way.

[Patrick Sweeney]

"Mike" is scorer-speak for a miss.

[Jon Merricks]

"Alpha" is a hit in the A-Zone.