Let's get real! Revolvers are not competitive in Production.

[wheelie]

I don't doubt that changing the entire USPSA system to 6 shot neutral will never happen. I am also positive that simply building in at least one (even better a couple) 6 shot neutral COF in each match is absolutely possible. Its actually a simple decision and a simple execution. It takes nothing away from anyone who is currently invested in a high capacity blaster. (we're doing it here) Total round count can still be up in the high 20s for those who want to hear a lot of noise. It is not hard to make a 6 neutral stage that is a great test of any shooter's ability and not just a contest to see who bought the gun that holds the most bullets.

Its actually kind of funny hearing the blaster boys complain about shooting classifers. Classifiers are a form of relief for me - usually they are an actual test of shooting ability. I move way up in the rankings. I like that. I'm here for the test and I don't mind that it is a strenuous test. But most shooters are not looking for a repetitive ass kicking every match when they have to pay an entry fee to receive said ass kicking.

This is a great discussion and I appreciate everyone's responses and participation.

Edited March 13, 2013 by wheelie

[pskys2]

Well Mike you might just have to do the "P" word thing to keep your edge, or be relegated to the has bin.

[cylindrically challenged]

I agree that there is really no contest with an 8 minor revo against an 11 shot production auto. So USPSA should throw the production revolver guys a bone and allow the 8 shot revolver guys to shoot major power factor. It would be big fun to get to use the 357 mag as a 357 against the wee 9 millimeters. What's more production than a stock 5" 627 shooting the ammo it was designed to fire.

[Lentz]

I shot battle in the blue grass in production with my 8 shot 627. I placed 17 overall in production so shooting a 8 shot in production is actually very competitive.

[cylindrically challenged]

But couldn't you have placed even higher if you would have been allowed to shoot your 8 shot revolver as major power factor in Production? I would love to see a BOD rule change to allow this. Allow stock 627s to be able to shoot 357 major ammo in Production.

[Carmoney]

I shot battle in the blue grass in production with my 8 shot 627. I placed 17 overall in production so shooting a 8 shot in production is actually very competitive.

Josh, I actually think you helped me make my point here. You're one of the best wheels in the game today, and you finished only 17th place. It sounds like you performed very well comparatively, but the handicap was still way too much to overcome.

My challenge stands. The only person to take me up on it so far has been Rich Brethour, and we will face off at Area 2 in November.

[Blueridge]

I shot battle in the blue grass in production with my 8 shot 627. I placed 17 overall in production so shooting a 8 shot in production is actually very competitive.

Josh, I actually think you helped me make my point here. You're one of the best wheels in the game today, and you finished only 17th place. It sounds like you performed very well comparatively, but the handicap was still way too much to overcome.

My challenge stands. The only person to take me up on it so far has been Rich Brethour, and we will face off at Area 2 in November.

I don't quite agree with you Carmoney. To me Mr. Lentz showed that revolver shooters can be competitive in Production currently. He finished 17th out of more than 90 competitors, which to me seems to go against your arguement.

[Carmoney]

Let me try this again:

Josh is one of our top GMs in Revo Division, and he was shooting a revolver (in Production Division). There were no Production GMs at the match. Josh finished 17th place at 79%. Of the 16 shooters who beat Josh, 9 of them were B- or C-class shooters!!

Josh did a great job at the match, and he certainly beat a lot of shooters--but he did not beat anybody who is anywhere near his level of capability. Due to the equipment disadvantage he imposed upon himself, he gave himself zero chance of winning the division. He was literally doomed from the start.

Proving my point.

[Flexmoney]

Proving my point.

If you get that point, you gotta give this one up!?!?

For those shooters who want to shoot their local club matches and be able to put pressure on the shooters in the other divisions.

[seanc]

Let me try this again:

Josh is one of our top GMs in Revo Division, and he was shooting a revolver (in Production Division). There were no Production GMs at the match. Josh finished 17th place at 79%. Of the 16 shooters who beat Josh, 9 of them were B- or C-class shooters!!

Josh did a great job at the match, and he certainly beat a lot of shooters--but he did not beat anybody who is anywhere near his level of capability. Due to the equipment disadvantage he imposed upon himself, he gave himself zero chance of winning the division. He was literally doomed from the start.

Proving my point.

This was the post I was going to write, on any given day josh is the right there among the very best. If he was against the same "very best" pool in nationals against production pistols he is doomed, as is anyone, jerry, matt, dave, rich, it doesn't matter.

[Carmoney]

Proving my point.

If you get that point, you gotta give this one up!?!?

For those shooters who want to shoot their local club matches and be able to put pressure on the shooters in the other divisions.

No inconsistency. The key phase in the second quote is "local club matches."

Edited April 15, 2013 by Carmoney

[Flexmoney]

No inconsistency. The key phase in the second quote is "local club matches."

I think the key is the competition part.

[Lentz]

If you want to shoot major stick to regular revolver division.

I literally put a gun together 4 days prior to the match and shot 100 rounds in preparation. If i would have been prepared and could run my regular extended cylinder release i would have been in the top 10 or better.

I really enjoyed shooting the 8 shot in production it reminds me of ICORE with more gun restrictions.

[TGO]

All very interesting. The thing I think Carmoney is trying to say is when you take an excellent revolver driver and put him up against production shooters several classes below him, they beat him. This is about the same thing I have found around here. I can't beat those in my class at a local match in any division except revolver with my revolver. 6 or 8 shot. Have tried really hard for the last couple months. I can't overcome the ease of shooting and reloading a semi-auto regardless of how well I manage the revolver.

Now there are undoubtably better wheelgunners than me, but I can't even come close to my production or SS scores with the revolver. So I no longer compare it that way. Although I try to beat everyone, anytime I'm shooting, I just try to score best I can with the wheel.

That's OK though, you won't beat an open gun shooter of the same ability with a limited gun either. Maybe on the occasional stage here and there, but not regularly.

I hope soon, when shooters wanna use 8 shooters, they will be in REVOLVER DIVISION!!

[Bosshoss]

First off Congrats to Josh on a outstanding showing.

I shot a match Sunday that is not too far from the BBG and many of the shooters at this match had shot the BBG Friday or Sat.

I was on a squad that had 3 revolver shooters including myself.(only 3 at the match)

Joshs performance was the main topic of discussion that I heard. I would guess that at least 10 or 12 people asked me if I heard about Josh's performance. I had read Josh's post just before leaving for the match so I was aware how he did but I didn't find out who won the match until I got home from the match and looked up the results.

I'm one of the only local revolver only shooters and do revolver action work on the side so I had 3 people ask what the rules are and what gun can shoot in what class and what gun to buy for what class. They also asked about how much a action rework cost and what gear they would need.

Josh's performance has stirred some local interest in revolver class just like the stand alone nationals did. I don't know how many will follow thru with actually buying a revolver and shooting them.

I'm guessing Josh didn't shoot his revolver at this match and expect to win the match(not out of the realm of possibility I guess) but shot his revolver because he loves to shoot revolvers. That is why most of us do it. I have excepted that I'm not going to beat a shooter with similar skill level shooting a auto but I try to keep them honest.

[Cd662]

"I agree that there is really no contest with an 8 minor revo against an 11 shot production auto. So USPSA should throw the production revolver guys a bone and allow the 8 shot revolver guys to shoot major power factor. It would be big fun to get to use the 357 mag as a 357 against the wee 9 millimeters. What's more production than a stock 5" 627 shooting the ammo it was designed to fire

I feel like once we start going down this road, we'll have to make all sorts of concessions. If revolvers can shoot major power factor, then shouldn't a "popular production" style single stack gun also be able to compete outside of the Single Stack division? Of course, when shooting major it may end up having less than 10 rounds so then we'll have to make a scoring concession. Etc etc.