Of class, foreign shooters, and USPSA Nationals

[shred]

My own suspicion is that we will have the problem as long as we provide that financial incentive.

Bruce

Bruce hit the nail right on the head, as long as there is monitary incentive to cheet you will always have this problem... IMHO Trophies and ribbons would eliminate a lot of sand bagging or as Bruce put it "classifier management"..

Honestly, I doubt that. I know several people that have practiced "classifier-management" at some point. Except for one, none of them were in it for the prizes. They wanted the Top-whatever plaque at a match, or the magic letter on their USPSA card. Very few matches around here offer incentives to finishing top in class, but bagging still happens.

We'd like to find a scapegoat, but it's not that simple.

[Wakal]

If people want to shoot for prizes, they should go to Coney Island.

My vote for "Great Line Of The Week"

But the problem at hand is that FNs have figured out how to manipulate the USPSA classification system in order to gain early trips to the prize table (the existance of which is another topic). Eric and Mike get to go first because, well, they rock. The TCNs from my 2003 and 2004 "Open" examples exploited a loophole in the system.

Personally, I like the "6 USPSA classifiers in the last 12-month period or you shoot 'U'" idea.

Alex

[kdj]

If people want to shoot for prizes, they should go to Coney Island.

While I may or may not agree with this statement, I think some one should defend, to the death, his right to say it.

Kevin

[uscbigdawg]

I believe there definitely needs to be some reform to international shooters.

Back when I cared about winning my class, I shot a regional with some friends and actually had a decent match. I think I was 30-35th overall in Open as a C shooter and between my friends, we all were like, "hey you won C-class, etc." Little did we know the guy that won C-class finished 11th overall. This was at the West Coast Championships, again in Open division, so if you know Norco (and these were the old days where you guys from other states came out and shot in CA) to finish 11th is some shootin'. I was bitter about it for a while as it cost me somewhere around $700 (First in class went to the table first and there was an STI frame with my name on it as well as STI Contingency money).

I'm over it, but it's something that someone could be feeling now. My favorite argument someone gave me was, "that guy came from Thailand...imagine what his plane ticket was." I didn't care. I wanted my frame!

Fast forward to now. All I care about is overall finish, but I'm not alone and winning your class is important to a lot of people. I would hate to think that one of our (US) shooters leaves the Nationals not wanting to shoot it again because an international shooter "took" his/her spot at the table.

What is the solution? I don't know. I kind of like the suggestion that if you haven't shot USPSA classifiers in the last year or you shoot unclassified. It's "relevant", but we all know this can be sandbagged just as easy. Another option is to just lump 'em all together in "International" class, but I would hate to herd the international shooters into one group and as such make them feel isolated.

Solution? Like I said...I don't know, but I am glad it's being discussed.

So now that I've contributed nothing I'll stop.

Rich

[AikiDale]

If people want to shoot for prizes, they should go to Coney Island.

[hopalong]

Any body see a prize table at the Olympics in Athens????

[BSeevers]

Winning your class also gets you a serious contingency prize if you shoot STI's

I really think we should not offer foreign memberships and classifications. Most shoot once a year in the USA so their "real" abilities are not equal with their class ranking. Heads up could solve this problem too. If we are sticking to classes though it is not a fair system. Just as a guy who lays down on his classfiers and wins "C" class with a top 10% finish. It really a version of the same thing.

[Dalmas]

Bingo-bango. At the end of the day it's all about prize tables,

My version of a line from Pulp Fiction (Samuel L & Travolta) On the "little" differences between The US and Europe..

Travolta - In the US they have something called prize tables at competition, it's true if you do good at competion in the US you actually get to see a real prize table not only an illusion of one.

Samuel - No shi...I'm going, I'm definitively going...

[Dalmas]

All sports have the same problem, golf with their handicap system and bullseye with theirs - nobody will ever find out a system that everybody think is fair.

Some people use the systems to get to the prize table. I know people that after getting to the "GM" class didn't win or even got to visit the prize table so they shot intentionally bad for one year and got moved back down to "M" class so they once again could visit the prize table... It plays on your personal integrity. I think it sucks but it's legal and it's very very hard to make a truly fair system.

[Vlad]

Any body see a prize table at the Olympics in Athens????

Yup, you betcha, yes siree Bob! It is called the multi million endorsment game and it has some odd rules which much resamble a prize table for the top 16. You can argue that it isn't official but it is there anyway.

Vlad

[Dead Buff]

No match I have attended to date (I know they were not that many) has given class prizes. The only prizes were 1-2-3 Open, Std, Prod, Mod, Rev; 1-2-3 Ladies, Junior, Senior, Super Senior and stage winners, etc.

Bottom line - you shoot for overall finish.

Now, not to loose the guys in c and d class, we reward 1-2-3 A, B, C, D (see above post why no GM, M); best improvement and 1 in Field Courses (Long and Medium), Speed Shoots and Standards, shoot-off winner (each one shoots for this), national champ and club champs at our own annual awards/year-end party. This is for members only.

The problem seems to be the declared (or managed) class of the shooter. Since not all in the world submit classifiers and some manage them, IMHO, they should only be used as a guideline for the individual to determine his place in the bigger scheme of things. At a match we all should shoot for the top of the podium and be awarded for that.

[Skywalker]

In Italy it's common to award the following prizes:

1-2-3 In every division: Plaques/Trophies + prizes

1-2-3 In every class (M, A,B,C,D, GM compete for overall): Plaques/Trophies (maybe prizes if attendance is around 280 competitors)

1-2-3 In every category (if recognizable as per the rulebook): Plaques/Trophies.

Foreign shooters shoot for overall standings, since there is no way to verify the declared class.

[Vince Pinto]

Any body see a prize table at the Olympics in Athens????

Yup, you betcha, yes siree Bob! It is called the multi million endorsment game and it has some odd rules which much resamble a prize table for the top 16. You can argue that it isn't official but it is there anyway.

Sorry Vlad, but that's a bad analogy. The answer to the question is "No, there are never prize tables at the Olympics".

Sure, if you do well at the Olympics (or any other major sporting event), you will probably be showered with lucrative sponsorship deals, but this is entirely a result of your medal placing or general performance, not because the winner of the "Clean & Jerk" went to a prize table and chose a protective cup lined with the fur of an albino Siberian Minx.

The same applies to IPSC matches. Top competitors are offered sponsorships based on their general performance and/or match placing, not because they happened to select a noogie widget from the prize table. Even "contigency rewards" can be determined without having a prize table.

[Shooter Grrl]

Fyi, winning your class at nationals gets you to the prize table right after the top 16

James

Yup it does, but the Foreigners can't take the guns so it really gains them nothing.

[Wakal]

Huh?

A $214 STI 10/22 frame is worth more than a $350 HoserCam? Than a $895 Gator AR upper? Neither of those two items are "guns"...yet, seeing as class winners hit the prize table after the top 16 but before everyone else...

FN/TCN competitors manipulating the system to gain an early trip to the prize table is the issue, not a "gun" prize

Alex

[Dead Buff]

Fyi, winning your class at nationals gets you to the prize table right after the top 16

James

Yup it does, but the Foreigners can't take the guns so it really gains them nothing.

An export permit could solve that, couldn't it....

I for one am in it for the game and if I make posi 1-16...I'll take what I earned....give the rest medals.....

[Vlad]

Any body see a prize table at the Olympics in Athens????

Yup, you betcha, yes siree Bob! It is called the multi million endorsment game and it has some odd rules which much resamble a prize table for the top 16. You can argue that it isn't official but it is there anyway.

Sure, if you do well at the Olympics (or any other major sporting event), you will probably be showered with lucrative sponsorship deals, but this is entirely a result of your medal placing or general performance, not because the winner of the "Clean & Jerk" went to a prize table and chose a protective cup lined with the fur of an albino Siberian Minx.

Ok, that was funny. The problem is that now I have the image in my head and that cup actually sounds kind a fun in a perverse way.

That aside, I doubt the the top shooters compete for the prize table or the "deals" to be had after. I think all top competitors worth he name compete for placement, regardless of the sport. I'm just saying that there are real hard cash prizes to be had for placing high in both fields. However sponsorship numbers in shooting sports are no where near as impressive and they are supplemented with prize tables. I'll bet you that if Dave S. or Eric or pick your favorite shooter, got his picture on a box of Cheerios or the commercial for his brand of boots and the million dollar conrtact, the prize table wouldn't really be a big issue for anyone.

Just my opinion. I am not likely to EVER win anything so it doesnt apply to me presonally, but I am all for prize tables if it attracts extra shooters or brings exposure to new products or if it is just for fun.

Vlad

[schoonie]

The prize table is really just an attendance award parcelled out by the shooter's skill.

After it's all said and done, nobody will remember, or care who got what at the prize table.

The match and class winners should be the only ones recoginized with awards and prizes for their accomplishments. The rest of us just need to practice!

[omnia1911]

Sandbagging has always been an annoyance, but it seems that foreign competitors at the USPSA Nationals have increased this to an art form.  All kudos to Eric and Mike, showing up with a GM (or U, as Mike did) card, kicking ass and taking names, but look down the list a bit.  Notice particularly the C-Class Open shooters.  In 2003, C-Open was won by a foreign national at 74 overall (the number two C-Open was back at 154 overall).  Said FN hadn't shot a classifier since 6/23/2001.  He would have taken second in B (at 13 match points back from the top "B").

That wasn't quite so bad.

This year, I noticed the same thing.

The 2004 top C-Open, at 28 overall, hasn't shot a Open classifer in two years (although he did shoot a Limited classifier a year ago).  The second C-Open, at 46 overall, was the same FN who won C-Open so handily the year before.  The two FNs would have been 2 and 3 "A", or 1 and 2 "B".

(NOTE: I didn't look at the other divisions, just Open, after I recognized the FN from last year's match)

I talked about this with my Area Director.  During the discussion, some ideas to resolve the problem of international sandbagging came up.

1. Mandate 6 classifiers during the previous 12 month period, or else shoot "U".

2. Mandate 3 "scored" classifiers during the previous 12 month period, or else shoot "U".

3. Set up a "Foreign" class, and all non-USPSA members shoot for top International (as they do already) instead of class wins.

Sandbagging is bad enough, but international sandbagging seems to be in a (ahem) class by itself.  Either option 1 or 2 would solve some US sandbagging (especially "2") as well, but "3" seems the easiest to implement.

Discuss?

Alex

Whether it is 3 or 6 classifiers that are required in the previous 12 month period, it is still possible to sandbag those classifier scores to remain in a class far below your true abilities.

To suggest that foreign sandbaggers are more insidious than the domestic ones is really not true. The domestic members have much better access to shooting classifiers on a regular basis than the foreign members. There just aren't that many foreign USPSA affiliated clubs out there.

-

[kdj]

How about a simple suggestion: Award trophies to class winners but make the prize table based on overall placement in division?

Those who chose to sandbag for the ego value of being first C will upset less people than today when they sandbag for a valuable prize. The encouragement for newer/less able shooters to compete to their level is still there since they have a trophy to put on the shelf. Every one is happy.

Tell me what I'm missing this time

Kevin

[Vince Pinto]

After it's all said and done, nobody will remember, or care who got what at the prize table.

Perhaps you're unaware that the most frequent and most heated argument amongst USPSA members is the order of distribution of prizes.

I've heard dozens of different and conflicting plans regarding which person and/or class and/or Division should have first pick, followed by further endless arguments about who should go next, and next, and next. The issue of prize tables is The Mother Of All USPSA Arguments (followed closely by the location and format of the Nationals).

This is why I continue to recommend that prize tables be abandoned.

How about a simple suggestion: Award trophies to class winners but make the prize table based on overall placement in division?

Name a Division which should get first pick, and you'll have the guys shooting the other divisions bitching like hell. Remember, all divisions are equal, regardless of the size of the participation in each.

[uscbigdawg]

Any body see a prize table at the Olympics in Athens????

You also don't see IPSC in the Olympics.

Rich

[short_round]

Any body see a prize table at the Olympics in Athens????

You also don't see IPSC in the Olympics.

Rich

.... but if you did, would there be a prize table then? If there wasn't would people still go and shoot?

[uscbigdawg]

Al,

[Total thread drift]

When it was thought that IPSC was going to be an exhibition sport at this year's Olympics, every happa that I know was figuring out how to do duel citizenship with our other 'native' country and get Olympic athelete bennies (like meeting the US Women's Beach Volley Ball teams! ).

Rich

[Total thread drift off]

[DogmaDog]

Why not just use placement in major matches as part of the classification system?

At the least, your results on one or two "classifier-like" stages from the match could go into your classification record, to be averaged with whatever other classifiers you've shot. You can't sandbag a classifier during a match AND win the match.

At the other extreme, a class win at a major match could be rewarded with the early trip to the prize table, plus membership in the next higher class.

Foreigners could get away with one major match class win, and then they'd have to compete in the next higher class the next year. US residents also, could get away with one major match class win, and then they'd be moved up. Why not?

DogmaDog