Hey SOs: how about giving procedurals

[Carmoney]

Yes, I know.....no matter what Hackathorn says, you guys are not going to start giving out FTDRs, with their match-killing 20 second penalty, to these sleazy cheaters who (1) blatantly triple-tap targets, dumping rounds in order to set up a more convenient reload; or (2) download the mag by one round every now and then to accomplish the same end.

You're not going to enforce it with a FTDR because you need participation at your matches and don't want to upset, offend, or turn anyone away (and, in a few cases you SOs are using the same cheating tricks yourself).

So--can you at least give out a procedural now and then, to keep things a little cleaner?

Or, hell, maybe even just issue a friendly warning??

I'm not all that worried about being "real-world tactical" and all that stuff, but I like to compete in a fair game, and frankly I hate being pushed down the list by these guys who won't follow the rules unless they're enforced. Or at least called on it.

C'mon.

[firewalker]

If we know the shooter at our local club a FTDR isnt out of the question...if i am running timer or SO u can tell a shooters intentions alot of the time and we call it on the line. Yes it discourages some shooters, but the ones we keep play resonably fair..

[firewalker]

Last tuesday IDPA league we had a shooter that didnt finish a COF. We gave a proceedural then discussed if we felt he was stopping the clock for advantage (FTDR) in the end only proceedural because it didnt seem resonable to drop 30 points or 15 raw secs...

[Mayonaise]

Situation dictates the call. Dump one or two especially if there's a bad hit on a target is a tough FTDR call. Dump extras on several targets or the last target before a reload in a COF the FTDR is easier to call. Intentionally downloading mags will earn one immediately except for new shooters who aren't quite up to speed yet. I'll give them the PE and a rules refresher. They always seem to try that one on the Bill Drill for some reason.

[short_round]

I'm not all that worried about being "real-world tactical" and all that stuff

I think you should get an FTDR for even thinking this. Cleary this is a violation of the spirit of IDPA.

but I like to compete in a fair game

The reference to a "game" is definately an FTDR if not two or even more.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Many know the rules and break them. Many show up not knowing the rules. Where do you draw the line? Having recently been a SO at a major match for 2 days, I am a little disgusted with the whole thing. Never seen so much gaming and whining in my life.

As far as a fair game, there is no such thing. There will always be those that side step the rules. IDPA is getting away from the original ideas of "Real Life" scenarios and is headed more to the game side. We now have IDPA guns, IDPA gear, IDPA shooting teams, and How to shoot IDPA courses.

As one person says in his signature on another forum, "There are no walk throughs in real life"

Regards,

[Practical Use]

If I really know the shooter, and I am the SO, I would give a FTDR. For example, an IPSC Grand Master who obviously dumps a round on the last target before a reload. But, it would also depend upon the circumstances (e.g. that last target is a really difficult shot and the shooter slows way down - no FTDR). Damn hard call in many instances - if in doubt, no FTDR.

Ed

[Matthew_Mink]

How are you going to catch them?

[markm]

As so eloquently stated by others:

" If you have a score card and a timer, it's a game."

[TriggerT]

Just my $0.02, but IDPA shooters want to try to keep their sport from being too much of a game, BUT like it has already been stated by several others, IDPA IS a game. Anytime you have this situation you are going to make up rules, and then people are going to play right up to the point of breaking those rules.

You say IDPA is training for a real gun fight, fine. What is the first rule of any fight? I am pretty sure it is to win.

[diehli]

It ain't dumping rounds, it's a NSR (non-standard response).

[BigDave]

Responses I can think of:

1) "I called a miss and didn't want a FTN"

2) "I lost count"

3) "Didn't the scenario say 3 rounds per target?"

4) "Two rounds wasn't tactical enough for me."

[Ron Ankeny]

Never seen so much gaming and whining in my life.

So IDPA is evolving into IPSC?

[Ted Murphy]

FWIW, good course design is one of the best ways to eliminate round dumping. I've SO'ed a few that just begged for shooters to take a dump.

It's really difficult if not impossible to make a dumping call on 1 extra round. Most of the time I'm pretty sure they did it to dump rounds but it's a tough call to make. Someone makes 3 hits in the -0 on a target 2yds away you may be able to argue the dump. On a 12 yd target? It could well be an insurance shot.

Little more easy to prove with 2 or 3 shots though.

FWIW, timed guys dumping 3-4 rounds on a stage once, just to see if it saved them time. Between their splits and the extra time spent thinking about when to dump, they did not save any time over the people who shot it legitimately. This is not an argument for not penalizing those proven to have dumped rounds, but an interesting thing to think about.

We did a stage at the Pa state match this year that had the shooter fire 11 shots from a vehicle, and then move to another vehicle for another few shots. The 11th shot was on a dissappearing target about 15 yds away. Most the revolver shooters fired an insurance shot on the disappearing target. Heck, most the auto shooters did too. It would be virtually impossible to claim a whellgunner "dumped" his rounds in that role.

Did a stage at another match that had shooters fire 8 shots then go prone. Many guys dumped rounds there and it was an easy cally to make when people fire 3 extra shots on a 4 yard target.

Ted

[JD45]

In my 4 years at IDPA I've yet to see a FTDR penalty dished out.

I've seen round dumping and I personally have fired a make-up or two for a -1 (thats my story and i'm stick'n to it).

If they start enforcing the rule people will stop, but it is hell to prove.

[Ted Murphy]

Seen a guy get a FTDR at the 1998 nats for taking a dump. Boy did the peanut gallery have a deer in the headlights look after that.

Ted

[Practical Use]

The problem is most of us don't want controversy, so we kinda just look the other way - why piss off someone you shoot with all the time. Then you have to get in the shouting match over assessing the FTDR.

Sometimes we take "giving the benefit of the doubt" beyond reasonable to avoid trouble.

[warpspeed]

Never seen so much gaming and whining in my life.

So IDPA is evolving into IPSC?

Maybe there is now a reason to try it.

[TriggerT]

It wasn't an ammo dump, that one target was jacked up on PCP, and little did the course designer know, he REALLY NEEDED to be shot 6 times.One more way to make IDPA more realistic.

[Ted Murphy]

We'll just call in Grissom from CSI to make sure.

Ted

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Never seen so much gaming and whining in my life.

So IDPA is evolving into IPSC?

More than you know. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy both sports. Any place to shoot is a good time. If these people want to whine, go to the whine cellar

Regards,

[Mayonaise]

I think it's more an issue of whiners finding a new place to whine. Odds are the IPSC folks are tired of hearing from them too.

[Carmoney]

Hmmmmm.....at the match where I witnessed all the obvious round-dumping (and we're talking BLATANT cheating--nothing borderline or "hard to call") my friends and I kept our thoughts to ourselves. That makes us......well, chickenshits, right?

Had we spoken up, we would no doubt be instantly labeled......whiners?

You see, that's the problem with cheaters--they force all of the rest of us to feel like we're being either chickenshits or whiners.

Or so it seems to me......

[Practical Use]

Ah Carmoney -

You are now infused with the wisdom of the ages (or at least the range!!)

Ed

[Steve Moneypenny]

why is it that EVERYONE wants or NEEDS to cry FOUL!

I say this as a shooter that tries to follow all the rules. i sometimes Plan extra rounds. "ooooh no he planned how to shoot a stage" when i see steel (which i have a hard time with) i sometimes put 2 rounds on it just because i couldn't CLEARLY call the first one. should i have slowed down.. yeah probabally be quicker than shooting again at .3 split. Do i fire an extra round on a target when I am retreating from retention, yes if i don't feel in perfect tune. have i shooting USPSA made up an A zone hit by accident.. Yes. and i have a 2 witnesses form teh forum. here.. i look back and they say.. GREAT job dude. you just made up an A hit on that last target.

a blatent round dump, maybe a problem. but know something it usually is NOT this wonderful advantage you all think it is. come on boys and girls, realisitically it's about .25 to fire that second shot in match conditions. and you also spend about that long on the transition back to the target.

Other situations, is it not our choice to fire extra rounds on a target so we can reload where we want? i've been called a gamer for tac loading places where i thought that would be beneficial... a nice skill to be able to do, i really am starting to think of it as the "new gamer move" i am behind cover, i can move ... pop a fresh one in by the time i'm out on the other side. i'm shooting. sure has made me practice that skill more lately.

here is a clue to COF designers/administrators you want to prevent dumpping rounds it's called "limited vickers" because if youc all people firing extra shots round dumpers then it might as well be limited vickers all around. those of us who REALLLLY want to dump a round you can't catch us. those who you can catch, are slow enough 99.9%of the time it won't matter in the end result. The only thing for good shooters to do is trust EACH OTHERS honor. I don't break rules because i want to know myself that i won fair and square, really, i don't give a thought to what others think of me. i do this for ME not them.

a lot of that will sound cocky arrogant and self centered. but for the most part it is true. People crying foul gets to me. and i do realize that many SO's will now look at me like an ant under a magnafying glass (ie try to fry me) because of what i said. but if i don't dump rounds with the INTENT of gaining an advantage. it IS legal. range lawyer i know. but it's a game, real life i'm going to be shooting a LOT differently!