BritinUSA Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The box is how magazines are kept in check for one thing. My original proposal mentioned that: 7. Maximum Size - Distance from the base of the mag-well to the bottom of the magazine base pad must not exceed 0.500". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Why does this new division have to come from the top down? How many of you who want this division have shot your ProOps guns in a local match? let's see the scores Four matches so far, look for TY38481 in Open/Minor: 06/28/14 07/06/14 07/12/14 07/20/14 Hopefully I will get two more matches in next weekend, and then its off to Area 3 Championship with the same gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Dude ... What the heck happened on stage 5 with the 8 procedurals ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Why does this new division have to come from the top down? How many of you who want this division have shot your ProOps guns in a local match? let's see the scores Four matches so far, look for TY38481 in Open/Minor: 06/28/14 07/06/14 07/12/14 07/20/14 Hopefully I will get two more matches in next weekend, and then its off to Area 3 Championship with the same gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Dude ... What the heck happened on stage 5 with the 8 procedurals ...? I forgot to grab a briefcase with my weak hand so it was a proc error for every shot fired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 How do you normally finish in local when shooting a full open rig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 How do you normally finish in local when shooting a full open rig? 85% and upwards. I find it hard to focus while I'm at a match. I am on-call 24x7 every week so I have to keep checking my phone all the time and this is immensely distracting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 BritinUSA, have you convinced anyone else to shoot their ProOps guns against you? sort of a grudge match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 BritinUSA, have you convinced anyone else to shoot their ProOps guns against you? sort of a grudge match? Someone else was shooting Open/Minor with what looked like a Production gun with a red dot on it at one of the matches but he think he was using standard capacity magazines.. He was on a different squad from me so I can't be certain of his setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) There are two rules that would need to be changed from Production to the new Production Optics Division, I'm not sure what he means by too many programs to change, is he referring to Practiscore because if so I think they can add/remove divisions very easily with that program? I agree with you. But I am editing my original reply because it really serves no purpose. My bad. Edited July 21, 2014 by JMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The box is how magazines are kept in check for one thing. My original proposal mentioned that: 7. Maximum Size - Distance from the base of the mag-well to the bottom of the magazine base pad must not exceed 0.500". this would make it illegal for a guy with a G19 to run with G17 mags, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The box is how magazines are kept in check for one thing. My original proposal mentioned that: 7. Maximum Size - Distance from the base of the mag-well to the bottom of the magazine base pad must not exceed 0.500". this would make it illegal for a guy with a G19 to run with G17 mags, Is that legal in current Production rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Well, my whole point for supporting this division is because it is a growing segment of the concealed carry crowd. THIS IS NOT A NOVELTY. THIS IS GROWING RAPIDLY AND I WANT THOSE SHOOTERS IN USPSA. What are they carrying? It's slide mounted optics on Production guns. are they Production Division legal guns or are they guns that may or may not be production legal? what I am saying is not is it a G19 but is everything about the gun Legal in production? So, no, I am not for frame mounted optics. For me, that is beyond the scope and purpose of Pro-Op. There is no current group of shooters doing that and carrying. Lasers and lights tend to be frame mounted, do you think a shooter with a laser should be excluded? I am sure there are more lasers/lights on defensive guns than there are slide mounted optics Stay focused people. Current box with upper RIGHT 1/4 slot cut out would work nicely. VERY NICELY. So far, Manny is not on board. I sent him a link to this thread. Hopefully he will change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Biker Several pages ago I think we agreed that lasers are fine, have to fit in current Production legal holster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Bikerburgess Couldn't answer your question first question. Not sure it is even relevant? Not being snide, I just don't think it is an important distinction. I am not, admittedly, a production shooting concealed carrying shooter. I have friends that carry and I take notice and pay attention to discussions about CC, but I couldn't tell you "if their guns are production legal". Undoubtedly some are and some are not. I simply don't think it matters. The fact is, that at present, there is no place to shoot a common production gun with optics, heads up against like competitors, none. AGAIN, THERE IS NO ORGANIZATION THAT OFFERS AN OWNER OF THESE TYPES OF GUNS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD IN WHICH TO COMPETE. This is why the "shoot it in Open" argument is, IMHO, ridiculous and insulting. These are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLATFORMS. For some, not saying you, to continue to insinuate otherwise demonstrates a lack of reasoning skills or a sophomoric understanding of the issue. I WANT USPSA TO BE THE ORGANIZATION THAT OFFERS THIS DIVISION FIRST. Some organization will offer it. If it's not USPSA that would be a shame. From all I have heard it is a growing segment of amongst the CC crowd and it's not slowing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 This is why the "shoot it in Open" argument is, IMHO, ridiculous and insulting. These are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLATFORMS. For some, not saying you, to continue to insinuate otherwise demonstrates a lack of reasoning skills or a sophomoric understanding of the issue. I disagree completely with this assessment. Every part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Why is everybody so brainwashed for the box? In a few posts people have said modify the box or make the box bigger to accommodate optics. What is the point of a box if your solution to a problem is to increase the size of the box? What size is an IPSC Production box? If you want to recreate some version of Modified, that's one thing -- the thing under discussion here is something else..... To possibly create a provisional division for carry or house guns that happen to utilize optics -- be they slide mounted optical sights, lasers, and/or flashlights.... I'm not trying to create anything, and I know what is being discussed here. My question is - why the infatuation with 'the box'? What purpose does it serve if a gun is already on the Prod Div approved list? It provides options in the building. If you're working off a G34, you may be constrained in your choice of mags, optics, etc. If on the other hand you're building on a G19 or even a G26, then maybe larger optics or different mags become a possibility...... ....and it provides constraints as well -- in that the largest gun may need to settle for a small red dot..... ....and lastly it's an easy quick check on modifications at chromo -- the gun either fits or doesn't. There are no lists of combinations that need to be consulted, no one needs to be an expert on every model manufactured by 27 different companies.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think the problem with the box is this; The box is mentioned in the rules but it should not be. The box is the criteria for NROI to determine if a particular make/model of gun is eligible for Production Division (there are other criteria as well). The criteria for which make/models are eligible for the Production Gun list should not be listed in the rules but listed in the Production Gun List document. Once NROI has determined that the gun make/model meets all the criteria then the box becomes irrelevant to the competitor, as long as the modifications done to the gun by the owner are within the rules in the Appendix then the gun is good to go. The box is no longer an issue... Right ? Nope. The box has a place next to the scale at chrono...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The box is how magazines are kept in check for one thing. My original proposal mentioned that: 7. Maximum Size - Distance from the base of the mag-well to the bottom of the magazine base pad must not exceed 0.500". And there are problems with that -- and it's a separation from PD rules.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The box is how magazines are kept in check for one thing. My original proposal mentioned that: 7. Maximum Size - Distance from the base of the mag-well to the bottom of the magazine base pad must not exceed 0.500". this would make it illegal for a guy with a G19 to run with G17 mags, Is that legal in current Production rules? Yes. As long as the combo fits the box it's good to go..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The more I read the more convinced I am it will be a bear to set up and regulate. Every day another valid point comes up. This is what makes me leery about uspsa adopting it. It will be a knee jerk reaction to make 5-6 people happy and end up only being 50% thought out. Thus causing nothing but hassles and heartaches for the MD's and stats folks and somehow, someway impacting the Production division as it now stands. I didn't even think about using a smaller G19 with a larger optic that would fit the box where a G34 would require something much smaller. And you can not do away with the box as long as the word Production is tied to it. Or a scale for that matter. Maybe a requirement could be made for the optic to be on a QD mount. Weigh and measure the gun and verify it's on the approved list then go stick your optic on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 USPSA Shooters are tinkerers by nature -- which is why the concept of a "stock gun division" can't work in this sport. Type A personalities will always push to the edge of the rule for any possible advantage....... I don't see an issue with increasing the box size for a production optics division..... You're going to probably have to up the weight allowance..... Those however are adjustments to PD rules -- not a wholesale re-writing or changing of those rules...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Chris iliff First you say you want the shooters with these guns in USPSA then you say it's not relevant if their gear would actually be legal in the division you want to attract them. I think it is very relevant. I believe we can come up with a rule set that would allow production type guns to play an a level enough field while allowing for a little more freedom in the guns and accessories used. The way I look at it production division is a honor system rule set, there are so many combinations of guns and parts that it is impossible for the match officials to really check them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 USPSA Shooters are tinkerers by nature -- which is why the concept of a "stock gun division" can't work in this sport. Type A personalities will always push to the edge of the rule for any possible advantage....... I don't see an issue with increasing the box size for a production optics division..... You're going to probably have to up the weight allowance..... Those however are adjustments to PD rules -- not a wholesale re-writing or changing of those rules...... I like where you are going with thisWe tinker, especially people who would mount a dot on their gun, so give us a easily defined Window to tinker in. I think a box works for this. If it fits it's good. Easy to check and no degree in firearm factory parts required. For weight just set a division maximum (just like single stack) if you want to make your glock heavier go for it, I think that is better than if you want a heavier gun go by a stock II I think with a little work we could write rules that would allow people to personalize their guns without creating any more of a equipment race than we have in production all ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 USPSA Shooters are tinkerers by nature -- which is why the concept of a "stock gun division" can't work in this sport. Type A personalities will always push to the edge of the rule for any possible advantage....... I don't see an issue with increasing the box size for a production optics division..... You're going to probably have to up the weight allowance..... Those however are adjustments to PD rules -- not a wholesale re-writing or changing of those rules...... I like where you are going with thisWe tinker, especially people who would mount a dot on their gun, so give us a easily defined Window to tinker in. I think a box works for this. If it fits it's good. Easy to check and no degree in firearm factory parts required. For weight just set a division maximum (just like single stack) if you want to make your glock heavier go for it, I think that is better than if you want a heavier gun go by a stock II I think with a little work we could write rules that would allow people to personalize their guns without creating any more of a equipment race than we have in production all ready. Interesting, an overall maximum weight. Ummm This would allow for extremely weighted polymer guns to weigh a similar amount to a CZ or Tangfo. That would level the playing field a lot. I don't have an opinion, but it would hinder the "production" spirit of the polymer guns. Btw, I'll be shooting a M&P C.O.R.E. and a DeltaPoint-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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