B_Seehawer Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 So the good eyes are still gonna win the coveted titles but allow then, the seniors and juniors and ladies and LE and whatever to use optics. Why would we exempt just these people? They already get their own category awards. Ok, now what does everyone think about this..Rob I think we drop L10 and Revolver and resume business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_Seehawer Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 So the good eyes are still gonna win the coveted titles but allow then, the seniors and juniors and ladies and LE and whatever to use optics. Ok, now what does everyone think about this..Rob What makes that group exempt? They already have their own category awards. I think we drop L10 and Revolver and resume business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_Seehawer Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Ugh. I suck at quoting. And fixing quoting. Shoot whatever you want. Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Only thing I don't like about it is that I have a couple of 1911s with slide mounted FF IIIs and don't own any production guns. And now you have an excuse, I mean reason to buy one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Yep, as I stated earlier, L10 seems the most redundant div and could easily be dropped without a lot of fuss. My understanding was that it was created solely to address changes in the law about mag capacity .... As Rob said, you could also just combine L10 and SS into one division as well and let them all play together. I also like his comment that the open division has little to do with practical shooting anymore. I will say however I'm not a fan of the no div awards idea because although you hear some people claim PO is so that old folks with bad eyes can still compete ... I say bovine scatology on that. Sure it would be easier for folks with truely bag vision to use a red dot but I'm assuming if it really is an issue, and not another excuse for not doing well, they would have already moved to open to address the problem. I always see lots of threads on here about " what to do about failing vision....". Unless you have some some kind of real eyeball issues, most people just need to go see an eye dr and get fitted for a good pair of glasses or contacts. I'm 55 yrs old with 3 eye surgies in one eye and i still shoot irons just fine. Of course I spent a lot of time with my eye doctors getting fitted with a good pair of progressive contact lenses but that is because shooting is important to me .... As was proposed from the very beginning of this zillion page thread ... No changes to the div rules except to allow for an optic to be mounted on the gun slide, fix the box so guns will fit and start shooting. Only people who don't want to do this continue to put up road blocks or try to make it complicated .... It's not. More shooting and less talking .... Edited August 1, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 L10 may have been created due to changing laws, but it continues to serve valuable function in all states, at least at local matches..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 There are currently 2 Divisions that can be shot in limited mag states besides L-10, Production Optics would add a 3rd choice that I guarantee will have exponentially higher participation than L-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The real world advantage of a slide mounted and therefore compact fitting of an optical sight is not for the competition shooter. We can wear our awesome shooting glasses to see the sights on the range, but I have to have the right prescription to see those sights properly, and that RX is no where near what I have for the rest of my day... Think big people. most folks aren't mounting these sights on their personal guns to shoot at a competition. The vast majority of handgun optic sights being sold today are for other than competition use. We need to be leading the way and be progressive yet remember our history. Because while optics are coming, the percentage of handguns wearing these are infinitesimal compared to the iron sights out there. Having said that, what is it that makes us want this sight. It isn't needed to make the competition interesting or fair. It's too keep the innovation and development of equipment and technique at the forefront of development for the practical use of the pistol. To me, adding production optics as a division only makes sense if the equipment is kept sensible and usable for the desired use. Whereas open has gone so far down the performance at all costs road, (and so has limited and L10) The other divisions are still reasonable. Adding the optical sight, or any other enhancements to performance shouldn't make the device unusable for other than competition use. So adding a new division makes sense in many ways although I am not for that yet. I am for allowing it in any division for sub categories. It may not work? There may be no way to keep the size, cost and weight of the devices reasonable. Do you really want to HAVE to mount a sight costing more than the gun to shoot the division? So adding this as a division seems premature. Lets find a way to try it first. If it works out that the division is viable, then we move forward. Remember that production (the most important division) is there to offer an alternative to our overly developed and irrelevant to the rest of the shooting world open and limited divisions. SS by the way is probably the second most important division. Remove it and see what industry and sponsor response is? The 1911 is the single most produced model of handgun. While some clubs may not see as many revolvers and SS entries as we do here in AZ, keeping strong industry support and involvement is more important than some may think. NASCAR versus F1 here. Go to your local public range and see what people are shooting, what they actually buy with their own money. We need to keep modifications in check. Baby steps. Keeping the guns reasonable (optics on production may not seem reasonable to many) is more important than many USPSA competitors recognize. IDPA exists because the powers that be at USPSA many years ago told the interested parties to take a hike. We did not care about keeping divisions that were not solely for the development of competition equipment. We said no, and in no polite way I might add... They are now bigger than we are now... Our response is SS, revo and production. They are the important divisions to the growth of the sport. Optics as an option would not probably hurt us if done correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 There are currently 2 Divisions that can be shot in limited mag states besides L-10, Production Optics would add a 3rd choice that I guarantee will have exponentially higher participation than L-10 I would agree with this. We already have lots of shooters whose guns would without the slide mounted optical sight be legal in other than open division. I do find it curious that this matters more to me now that my eyes can't as clearly see the sights on my carry gun than for aiding me in competition use.... I wonder if maybe IDPA is thinking about a compact optical sight division??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Keeping the production division relevant would for me require us to not add optics as a division. As I said before, let it be a category in the division. Probably no other shooter in the sport is as affected by vision changes as I am. Getting older and losing speed of focus and the wide range of depth I could see clearly at is a factor, but I have stayed somewhat competitive nonetheless. Still, I do not want to loose the integrity of the competition and we have enough divisions now. We could do with less. The more I think about it, the more I bet those that need the optics would not care if they were excluded from the overall and class titles. They aren't likely to win those anyway. They are shooting open now to allow the optical sight? If they are willing to enter in production with a prod op knowing they are only competing for sub category recognition, then I believe you have accomplished something. Found a real need and addressed it. BTW, I'd usually and gladly ditch L10 for ProdOp. Except this year where many IPSC Classic shooters will be using that equipment at the Nationals as a prep for the World Shoot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Rob: I'm curious as to what kind of prescription you have for shooting that makes it vastly different from your everyday prescription to be able to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 SS by the way is probably the second most important division. Remove it and see what industry and sponsor response is? The 1911 is the single most produced model of handgun. Is there any reason SS needs to be as restrictive as it is (excluding many 1911's and other SS guns)? I think with the restrictions SS currently has, L10 is probably still needed. At my level, there's no reason why I can't compete in L10 with my 1911, and I don't feel I'm at any disadvantage to guys who are just loading 10 rds in their 2011. It may be different for top shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garyg19 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 "The more I think about it, the more I bet those that need the optics would not care if they were excluded from the overall and class titles." Strongly agree with the above for myself. Robs solution is the best I've read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Rob: I'm curious as to what kind of prescription you have for shooting that makes it vastly different from your everyday prescription to be able to see? I use +1.25 for uspsa and general speed shooting, +1.50 for Bianchi, +1.75 for bullseye and my everyday is +.25-.50 with 1.50 add bi-focal for reading. just for reading anywhere from 1.75 for computer screen to 2.00 for reading and working on guns etc... I use .50 for optical sights, same as my distance RX. With the amount of correction I need to see the sights well enough for quick work, I can't see clearly enough at distance for my liking... I'm lucky to have Dr. Kerry Pearson local, who is a GM and the great people Decot sport optics in Phx to keep me tuned up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Welcome to old age, vision is the first to go, well, maybe not the first ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yep, as I stated earlier, L10 seems the most redundant div and could easily be dropped without a lot of fuss. My understanding was that it was created solely to address changes in the law about mag capacity .... As Rob said, you could also just combine L10 and SS into one division as well and let them all play together. I also like his comment that the open division has little to do with practical shooting anymore. And combine Revolver with Super Senior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Guys, I don't know whats gonna be the best way to handle the Prod Op thing, I just see it as inevitable that to keep on moving forward we ought to try it new things, and where better than in the most important and easily accessible division. If it's a good deal, then we could consider trying it in other places. Maybe it won't work out, but then again... I do know I'd hate it if everything became optics and there were no iron sighted divisions, so I can see the dangers inherent in the experiment. The reason we have limited, and then SS after that is because the technology and development went unchecked. It's ok that the guns in open are what they are now. We have options. Open is our top fuel division. Not everyone wants to play there however... Personally, I doubt I'd shoot Prod Op at the national level as I'd like to compete for the title as long as I could, but I bet I'd shoot it around my home club..., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Welcome to old age, vision is the first to go, well, maybe not the first ! It wasn't the first thing to go..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGO Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yep, as I stated earlier, L10 seems the most redundant div and could easily be dropped without a lot of fuss. My understanding was that it was created solely to address changes in the law about mag capacity .... As Rob said, you could also just combine L10 and SS into one division as well and let them all play together. I also like his comment that the open division has little to do with practical shooting anymore. And combine Revolver with Super Senior. I bet I'll be shooting open when I earn the opportunity to shoot Super Senior... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Open and Limited guns mostly look alike because they have been refined and evolved to be the best at doing the job they do without many rules limiting that development. Production guns all do not look alike because there are so many rules to level the playing field that we'll never figure out what is actually the best pistol for the job, merely those that are 'good enough'. We can have a division that will develop the best possible guns and scopes for the task at hand, or we can have a division where you can bolt a factory dot onto most any factory gun and play on a level field. We can't have both. If we want to drive 'practical' handgun and optic development, we need something like Modified where the innovators and gearheads can play-- ie: "do whatever you want as long as it fits in this box". If we want to have a fun place to play with dots on factory guns, then it's "pick a factory gun from the 'good enough' list and a factory scope from the 'good enough' list and hope that eventually the factories make better guns and scopes, at which point we will complain piteously about 'unicorn' factory guns" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Hi Rob (or maybe I should refer to you are Mr. Leatham), do you foresee Springfield getting on this trend and offering factory guns with a recess in the slide that will accept a RDS -similar to how the M&P Core is setup to co-witness with iron sights? I realize that USPSA is just a microcosm in the larger scheme of the firearms industry and we don't control how the tide ebbs and flows, but does market research indicate this to be one of the future trends in handguns? I agree with what you said about keeping innovation and equipment development in the forefront, and IMHO USPSA should be making an attempt to keep up with advances in technology that promote practical shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Open and Limited guns mostly look alike because they have been refined and evolved to be the best at doing the job they do without many rules limiting that development. Production guns all do not look alike because there are so many rules to level the playing field that we'll never figure out what is actually the best pistol for the job, merely those that are 'good enough'. We can have a division that will develop the best possible guns and scopes for the task at hand, or we can have a division where you can bolt a factory dot onto most any factory gun and play on a level field. We can't have both. If we want to drive 'practical' handgun and optic development, we need something like Modified where the innovators and gearheads can play-- ie: "do whatever you want as long as it fits in this box". If we want to have a fun place to play with dots on factory guns, then it's "pick a factory gun from the 'good enough' list and a factory scope from the 'good enough' list and hope that eventually the factories make better guns and scopes, at which point we will complain piteously about 'unicorn' factory guns" Opinion. For what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 As someone who is very interested in shooting PO I would probably be a lot less interested in it if I couldn't compete for class/division titles as I don't need an optic to see my sights well ... Rob: thx for the detailed explaination about your prescriptions ... I thought I might be missing something. I currently wear continuous focal length contacts which provides me with both 20/20 near and far in my dominant eye. In my left eye I can only get 20/25 as a result of the 3 surgies. I had toyed with getting glasses but having to adjust my head position constantly to go back and forth from near to far with the bifocal didn't seem like an attractive option ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Sorry for the thread drift but it sounds like you wear bifocals for shooting? If so, is there no issue with having to adjust your head position to look through the top and then bottom of the glasses? Or is this just sonething you learned to adjust to like when I switched from a Glock to a CZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_Seehawer Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 It sounds like Rob has more money into his glasses than I do into my Open rig. A slide ride optic sounds cheaper at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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