Really, What's the difference in ARs?

[GregSmith]

Ok Ok, I admit, since joining the forum a little while back, I've been sharing my excitement over my new Colt .308. (Maybe/probably OVERsharing my excitement.) It's my first AR style rifle of any kind and well, it's just really cool to have such a cool blaster!

Some people have complimented it, others have said things like, "The Colt will probably suck, that's what they do. Suck." There will always be flamers like this. It's cool. I also understand I have a rifle that's probably a bit over-priced. (Really how much does a name cost?) But here's the question from the super new guy... Me.

Really, What's the difference If all of these high end rifles? If I said I had a rifle with Magpul furniture, and Geissele trigger, full-length gas system, a high-quality barrel, a great muzzle break and a good BCG...Which gun am I describing? Kind of all of them right? Can you really say that a rifle with Magpul Furniture is better or worse than VLTOR furniture? Is a JP handguard really than much better or worse than a Samson handguard? I've read threads on barrels, triggers, muzzle breaks etc and there seem to be a handful of fantastic choices. I assume while none of the manufacturers can admit who's making their NDA stuff (like barrels, receivers, gas systems etc.) it's all fairly high end if that manufacturer wants to put out a high-end product.

So who's the best? Can you really say Colt sucks? Can you say DPMS is better than Armalite? For that matter, how can I say Colts rock? Is the Colt Pro better than the Stag 3G or the DPMS 3G1 or the JP? Heck, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. They all seem to have the same high-level parts.

So, as the new guy...the REALLY new guy...I ask you this: What am I missing? If everyone is using a great trigger, barrel, muzzle break, BCG, what's left? Is the gas system, the stripped lower or the receiver what truly makes a great rifle? Is it the attention to detail in the assembly process? the quality control? Is it the combination of those parts that make a rifle great? Yeah, I might share my excitement over my Colt, but you'll never hear me talk crap about other rifles because 1. I've never shot anything but my rifle and 2. I'm really wondering if any rifle is that much better or worse than another. Seems to me a lot of these companies are piecing together great rifles out of great parts made by companies that specialize in making those great parts.

I humbly await all of your expert thoughts and comments. I've learned a lot in the last couple of weeks and I can't wait to learn more from all of you. So really, what's the difference in AR's?

[Steve RA]

If it goes bang every time and is accurate, then it is sort of a Ford vs Chevy thing. Everyone has their favorite parts, which all do about the same thing.

[MarkCO]

There are some relevant discussions in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=163219&st=25#entry1822014

[abn-rgr]

Most 3gunners piece their own rifles together anyway with what they think is best. If it shoots good, enjoy the hell out of it and dont worry what others say.

[MattYvip]

it's been my experience (and I'm no expert) that you pay for what you get.

But even then, what do you need vs what do you want? I have an LMT AR-15. It is an outstanding gun and with certain ammo I'm getting well under 1/2 MOA. And I paid a lot more for the gun than say a DPMS 3G1.

But that doesn't mean I win matches either. There's guys and gals beating me with 800 dollar ARs.

more than likely the more $$ you shell out, the better quality of all the parts you get included on the gun (again thats typically not always). I'm not a frankengun kind of guy (though there are people who can do it and have great sucess) so I buy factory and then change the trigger or muzzle break.

An example of good parts would be the Colt CR Pro, ie. the adjustabe gas block, surefire comp, fluted barrell, giesselle (spelling?) trigger, magpul CTR stock ect... and at 1700 bucks (dealer price) it should have great components.

But the argument to that would be the DMPS 3G1, it has a JP trigger, JP handguard, decent comp, magpul (I think) stock, ergo grip ect... and it's about 1100 (dealer price).

So saving 600 bucks and getting a comperable rifle maybe an option for most people. I think the asthetics of the Colt a lot more so some may go that route.

Bottom line I guess is what Steve RA said, if it's reliable, accurate, and you like it then late the haters hate brother!

[Graham Smith]

It really comes down to suitability to purpose. Recreation, hunting, competition, precision, etc. This is true with every type of gun made.

A rifle that is great for 3-gun may be exactly the wrong thing for hunting. A good tactical rifle is going to suck for long range shooting. Etc.

I'm not sure I would have gotten a Colt .308 mainly because I really have no use for one. And I can kick your ass at 1000yds with my bolt action .308. But if we were hiking through the woods with our guns, I'd be in real trouble because mine probably weighs twice what yours does.

[usmc1974]

IMHO It all boils down to your ego and your wallet. my AR is not special but I can hit a 10 plate all day at 100-200 yards and still put 2 in the center of a reduced USPSA target 15 to 50 yards with it and the little zero magnification C-more that sets on top of it. just a thought

[benny hill]

You want it light, under 8 1/2 lbs w/o scope., accurate, sub 1 moa with criterion barrel, jp trigger AND my tuneable comp .

[Steve RA]

Well, ok.

Ace stock, LAR side charge upper, Jard adjustable trigger, Ergo tactical grip, Black Hole Weaponry 18" barrel, JP Tank Comp, JP captured recoil spring, AP carbon fiber fore end - just for the big stuff.

[GregSmith]

Benny. I wish! 13 lbs with optics. So I'm just gonna work out like a mad man. (Can a person say a JP trigger is better than a Geissele? AR Gold? Timney? Kind of my point of the whole thread. Trying to learn.)

Graham. Yes I'm sure you could take me with a bolt gun. I'm a noob shooter... so far 60 rounds through an AR platform. Pretty much no other rifle experience. But you'd have no use for it? Uhhh....Zombies. Duh!

Thanks everyone else! Great input. How about more technical stuff or info about manufacturing? Like what makes a JP great and worth so much? (besides the fact they look sweet!) Or are they all the same and you're just paying for a name? Can a person do a "Good, Better, Best" with AR brands? If you can, how if they're all using similar quality parts?

If we were to take the top 3 triggers, the top 3 barrels, top 3 brakes, top 3 BCGs etc... and randomly took one from each and made 3 random ARs not having any of the same parts, would they all be equal guns? OR...is there something more? Is it HOW they're put together by a manufacturer? Is it WHICH parts you group together?

If 3 people all built ARs with Magpul furniture, JP triggers, Criterion barrels and say...oh who knows, a DPSM BCG. Would the 3 guns be comparable? Or would the other little parts matter? (like the gas system, the handguard, the lower etc.) Is there a priority to which pieces or a rifle are most important? Lots of questions I know... But this is the knowledge I'm trying to gain. (Until I find another topic.) I like hearing everyone's perspective.

Edited December 4, 2012 by GregSmith

[Stlhead]

Guns are dangerous, and all AR's are prone to sudden and irreparable malfunctions that not only endanger the operator but also any unfortunate souls who are within 50 yards of the incident. I recommend that all new 3 gun shooters only use a single shot break action rifle as it is the most robust and failure proof design available. You do give up just a bit in the speed department, but the reliability will more than make up for it. If you must shot an AR then at least consider wearing a heavy jacket and a ski mask to help protect yourself from the gas blow-back that can occur when shooting more than 1 round every 10 or 15 seconds.

In case you happy BE readers have not noticed, I have decided to remove my self imposed restriction on sarcasm. I have just returned from a nice vacation and have decided that life is too short to not indulge in sarcastic internet disscusions. As to the question as to if some AR's are better than others, or even if some guns are better than others (the next logical question), I would humbly submit my answer. Yes, some AR's are better than others. Some guns are better than others as well. A more important fact is that some shooters are also better than others, and the skill of the shooter is far more important than the quality or features of the firearm, all other things being equal. On an unrelated side note, the development of my 1x unlimited eye relief optic has been continuing even during the sarcasm stoppage, and will be soon proudly displayed for all of the Benoverse to marvel.

Cheers!

[bpipe95]

You want it light, under 8 1/2 lbs w/o scope., accurate, sub 1 moa with criterion barrel, jp trigger AND my tuneable comp .

I guess I gotta build another upper and try one of these barrels.

[co-exprs]

With AR15's it's pretty easy to pull together a set of high quality parts and build a nice rifle which will shoot very well. You get into that upper 10% of performance by purchasing from a company which strives to build from a group of parts which work and balance really well with each other. AR15's are really pretty easy.

AR10's are a whole other ball game. Many manufacturers use proprietary systems for the bigger 308s. My buddy researched and built his own 308 from all of the best parts available, and had some unexpected reliability bugs to work out. He got it all dialed, but it took him a few months to figure it all out and now he has a really top notch rifle. I've never shot any Colts, and only know them by reputation. I can tell you that thier reputation combined with the finickiness of the 308 platform leads me to not put them at the top of my purchase list. Especially at a price point near to JP and Larue, which are extremely well thought out and executed platforms. The shooting community might be pleasantly surprised by a really well executed platform, but the spec sheet tells me that marketing was not speaking to competitors when they designed the rifle. A 20" heavy contour barrel with a PRS stock will weight a metric ton and the PWS comp is certainly not a first draft pick... especially for a 308. So in the marketing video we all watched, the very heavy Colt was hopping around pretty aggressively. It makes me ask myself... just who did they design this rifle for? It's too heavy and violent for most serious 3gunners. The barrel is too long for most professional Operators. If I'm gonna spend $3000+ on a rifle, I want to feel like I got something special. Not just a page full of marketable parts. It may turn out to be a really nice rifle. I'm just not willing to drop that kind of coin to find out.

[Stlhead]

Good trigger (I also prefer a JP), 20" light profile quality barrel, long hand guard, rifle length tunable gas, a good working comp and a stock that fits you will get you a long ways. Build it yourself or have someone else build it, the choice is yours.

[1chota]

Bwana makuba! Simba Nairobi! i paid a witch doctor to do some magic stuff on mine. Look out Dan!

Cereally: Benny is right when he says light without the scope. i run a medium contour 22" JP with a Swarovski Z6 1-6X BRT. if i don't finish well (and i usually don't) it ain't the rifles fault.

remember there are only two kinds of beer: 1) cold and 2) free.

[GregSmith]

CO-EXPRS - I always like your comments, even when they dig at me.

Being such a new shooter. I don't know Colt's reputation. I DO know that the gun in the video is different now. The parts in my gun are different and I don't think my gun is the final product. Different brake, handguard and BCG from the little I know. I'm hoping that means they've been researching and refining. I did notice in the video the recoil to the right. I haven't noticed that in mine, but 1. I've only shot 60 rounds through it. 2. It was on a rest and 3. What do I know with my little experience. It DOES weigh 13lbs. That's a ton from what I understand. But it's not unmanagable. (we'll see what happens when I get good enough to actually run around and shoot with it.) But you comments are awesome and well absorbed. Thank you.

[co-exprs]

CO-EXPRS - I always like your comments, even when they dig at me.

Being such a new shooter. I don't know Colt's reputation. I DO know that the gun in the video is different now. The parts in my gun are different and I don't think my gun is the final product. Different brake, handguard and BCG from the little I know. I'm hoping that means they've been researching and refining. I did notice in the video the recoil to the right. I haven't noticed that in mine, but 1. I've only shot 60 rounds through it. 2. It was on a rest and 3. What do I know with my little experience. It DOES weigh 13lbs. That's a ton from what I understand. But it's not unmanagable. (we'll see what happens when I get good enough to actually run around and shoot with it.) But you comments are awesome and well absorbed. Thank you.

[Sleepswithdogs]

Someone like JP has immense thought and experience in every part and in every rifle he puts out. That said, what I'm looking for in a rifle is one that shoots better than I do. My money, in a word, is spent on confidence. When I'm missing a target I never, ever have to think, "is my rifle letting me down?" Because I know I put what I think are the best parts available in it, and I know it will shoot better than I can. I remember once when I was shooting 3 position. We were competing against West Point, and at dinner the night before the match we were eating with them in the mess hall. Well, they convinced us our ammo was crap, then beat us the next day, our only loss of the year. They had shaken our confidence in our equipment and it paid off for them. Confidence.

Furniture, triggers, there is a LOT of subjectivity in these parts. What's best for one isn't best for everyone, it's what suits you and your style. The idea here is to set up a rifle that shoots the way you do, not have the shooter attempt to adapt to the rifle.

Barrels, I want a barrel that will shoot a variety of wts of ammo well, I can't afford to shoot match grade ammo on everything, that's for sure. Not all barrels can do that, and not all barrels share the same level of accuracy either. Of course, a lot here depends on the distances you shoot. If you shoot at ranges/matches that never shoot out past 100 yards, your need for accuracy is greatly reduced and at that point, light weight is handy. If you shoot in say, Texas, and distances can go out to the 500's, accuracy is more important IMO.

A match rifle is a lot like a race car. Having good parts is not enough, the parts must work together to produced top performance, and then must suit the shooter. Of course, you have to be able to shoot it well, or your just another dude with a fancy rifle and not enough training.

This is my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

Tar

Edited December 4, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs

[MarkCO]

And you have to be aware of fan boys! Few people get to shoot ALL of the stuff and even fewer get to objectively test components and parts and entire systems. That is why I so often tell people to go shoot other people's gear, so you know how it performs in your hands.

[1chota]

then again the witch doctor didn't cost much and it couldn't hurt. could it?

[Alaskapopo]

Ok Ok, I admit, since joining the forum a little while back, I've been sharing my excitement over my new Colt .308. (Maybe/probably OVERsharing my excitement.) It's my first AR style rifle of any kind and well, it's just really cool to have such a cool blaster!

Some people have complimented it, others have said things like, "The Colt will probably suck, that's what they do. Suck." There will always be flamers like this. It's cool. I also understand I have a rifle that's probably a bit over-priced. (Really how much does a name cost?) But here's the question from the super new guy... Me.

Really, What's the difference If all of these high end rifles? If I said I had a rifle with Magpul furniture, and Geissele trigger, full-length gas system, a high-quality barrel, a great muzzle break and a good BCG...Which gun am I describing? Kind of all of them right? Can you really say that a rifle with Magpul Furniture is better or worse than VLTOR furniture? Is a JP handguard really than much better or worse than a Samson handguard? I've read threads on barrels, triggers, muzzle breaks etc and there seem to be a handful of fantastic choices. I assume while none of the manufacturers can admit who's making their NDA stuff (like barrels, receivers, gas systems etc.) it's all fairly high end if that manufacturer wants to put out a high-end product.

So who's the best? Can you really say Colt sucks? Can you say DPMS is better than Armalite? For that matter, how can I say Colts rock? Is the Colt Pro better than the Stag 3G or the DPMS 3G1 or the JP? Heck, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. They all seem to have the same high-level parts.

So, as the new guy...the REALLY new guy...I ask you this: What am I missing? If everyone is using a great trigger, barrel, muzzle break, BCG, what's left? Is the gas system, the stripped lower or the receiver what truly makes a great rifle? Is it the attention to detail in the assembly process? the quality control? Is it the combination of those parts that make a rifle great? Yeah, I might share my excitement over my Colt, but you'll never hear me talk crap about other rifles because 1. I've never shot anything but my rifle and 2. I'm really wondering if any rifle is that much better or worse than another. Seems to me a lot of these companies are piecing together great rifles out of great parts made by companies that specialize in making those great parts.

I humbly await all of your expert thoughts and comments. I've learned a lot in the last couple of weeks and I can't wait to learn more from all of you. So really, what's the difference in AR's?

AR's are not created equal. Colt is one of the best and certainly does not suck. Generally speaking you get what you pay for. The AR's priced at the lower end are there for a reason. Rifles priced higher are also there for a reason.

High end AR's

Colt,

Bravo Company,

JP

Noveske

Daniel Defense

Laure

Mid range

RRA

Bushmaster

STAG

Low end

DPMS

Oly

(I have direct personal experience with all the brands above because I have owned them or in the case of DPMS been responsible for department guns nor is my opinion tainted by being sponsored by any of these brands. There may be other great brands I just don't have experience with them so I won't comment)

Different rifles companies are also good at different things. If I wanted a defense rifle Noveske is at the top of the list for me. If I wanted a dedicated 3 gun rifle JP is at the top of the list.

If I was on a budget and could not afford the best but still wanted something good I would look hard and long at Stag.

Personally however I prefer to chose the parts I want and put together exactly what I want.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[1chota]

And you have to be aware of fan boys! Few people get to shoot ALL of the stuff and even fewer get to objectively test components and parts and entire systems. That is why I so often tell people to go shoot other people's gear, so you know how it performs in your hands.

Mark is spot on here. IF you can find a variety to play with it will greatly enhance the decision making process. If not, then it will be a choice of buy and try or go for the gusto and hock the car. i played with several different makes before i stuck on the JP. That is MY choice based on MY hands on. It ain't necessarily the only way out there. But i sure do like it.

[XxMerlinxX]

I think the answer to the core of your question, what makes one AR manufacturer better than another, is this... Each manufacturer specs their parts to certain tolerances and quality control checks. Where as Colt may QC check every bolt that leaves their assembly line, Olympic Arms may only check every 300 bolts (made up numbers, but you get the idea). During these quality controls, they measure the parts to make sure they are the correct dimensions, make sure the finishes have been applied properly, stake the gas key and make sure it's done properly, as well as the holy trinity of tests, shot-peening, high pressure testing, and magnetic particle inspection. Some companies do all of this, some only do a few different tests, some companies don't do any at all. It's these differences that really puts one manufacturers product above the rest and what builds a good reputation.

[usmc1974]

A more important fact is that some shooters are also better than others, and the skill of the shooter is far more important than the quality or features of the Cheers!

I agree 100%

[Lifeislarge]

I am also new to AR's and though I've had a few, I've never put more than 500 rounds down any of them nor shot further than 100 yards. From what I understand even the cheapest guns will last 5000 rounds (about $1500 in ammo) so unless you're into tactical training or plan to shoot thousands of rounds a year in competition, just about any rifle will outlast it's time in the safe. Hell, even if you do manage to shoot out the barrel they're not that much to replace.