Help! Multiple gun problems

[Clyde]

Have I got a deal for you Almost an even trade.

[MikeFoley]

Is it red and silver and I can't make it malf?

Yesterday you might have traded me that keg of powder for it.

[MikeFoley]

In trying to figure out what I am doing to cause my hammer to follow, I discovered that if I hold the gun in a firing position with my strong hand, finger on the trigger and hold the slide halfway open with the weak hand, I can do two trigger pulls while releasing the slide and about 1/5 of the time cause this same condition. The hammer never made a noise going down.

However, dropping the slide from full length (not a good idea), doesn't allow the hammer to follow with my finger on or off of the trigger. It just happens during two quick trigger pulls.

This is as close to replication as I have come in a non-firing enviornment, and the first time I ever tried it one handed.

[Ross Carter]

Check the grip closely for cracks, I've had at least one gun have hammer follow that was caused by that. I suspect that a grip that's been weakened too much might do the same. Also with the gun assembled without the beavertail, look to see how much the disconnector clears the sear leg as the slide is cycled.

Some people can ride the trigger just right or work it fast enough to cause hammer follow even when the trigger job is correct. It's a timing thing that can happen even with a stock 1911 but its much easier with a light trigger. The fact that your problem goes away with a short trigger indicates that may be whats happening to you. In those cases I set the trigger up with a lot more take up and overtravel than usual.

[Larry White]

Lighting fast splits by themselfs never won a match, but a following hammer has lost a lot of them. Winning is about control. Slow down to a pace where the gun and you are under control and can function. You have already found out what squeezeing the crap out of the gun and slamming the hell out of the trigger gets you. Try something else. Sometimes slower really is faster. Larry

[MikeFoley]

Thank you Mr. Carter for your reply. I appreciate someone finally telling me that it is not absurd to think that I am outrunning the gun on occasion or riding the trigger. I will check for spring rubbing and let you know. The weakening of the grip is possible, but I checked for cracks at the advice of Bob Londrigan while at the nationals.

I have suspected that I am riding the trigger, probably a result of too much DA revolver and Glock shooting where a little tension is good providing you have positive return.

Thanks Ross for your wisdom, every piece of advice I have ever received from you, both direct and indirect has been logical and right on the money. I appreciate your willingness to help, even when there is no revenue stream attached.

[MikeFoley]

lkytx,

You too have a perfectly sensible point. Smooth is fast, and fast is...well it doesn't produce consistent results. This is probably why I can shoot several matches in a row and never see the malfunction, because I am doing what I should, controlled-aimed fire at varying distance targets (calling every shot).

In practice, I tend to push myself a little harder, especially when my two closest competitors/friends are doing the same. We have been shooting some drills together a couple of times a month, and bragging rights come into play. I also try to see what I am capable of there.

Thanks Larry for your calming post. It looks like there are finally some logical observations coming in. It is difficult to remain logical when your gun is hosing you, and I appreciate all of the help.

[MikeFoley]

Ross Carter's post makes sense, and supports some of our theories and observations. I am glad to have this post to work with because it doesn't have me changing parts or sending it to other bigtime smiths.

Larry also posts a good theory on how to avoid this and shoot my game the right way. Let's face it, 5 yard targets with lightning fast un-aimed fire are not gonna be that prevolent and are usually not going to give me an advantage anyway. That is simply not where I usually get my high HFs.

[mcoliver]

Dude, 0.10 splits are awesome!

Ever consider an all-steel gun? Maybe with that the gun will no longer hold your splits back.

[MikeFoley]

I wish I could do them all the time. They are getting more frequent though.

I have thought about an all steel gun, but I really like my gun, and none of the steel framed wide bodies feels right in my hand. I may have duplicated this with my singlestack, but will need to do it at the range to be sure.

[MikeFoley]

Shot 500 rounds today in a Sevigny Performance class without malfunction. Tewlman asked Dave about riding the trigger in a single action. His reply almost floored me. He said a lot of guys have this problem including Phil S, and it is linked to fast split timing and the timing of the gun. There is enough support for this theory, that I am almost certain that it is my problem. Thanks again, and the truth is out there.

[Sam]

Ross Carter and all, thanks for the thread!

I have this hammer follow problem occasionally and haven't been able to discover a mechanical reason to explain it. Whenever I do a trigger job, I always run it through a torture test to see if I can make the hammer follow. Sometimes I can. It only happens when the splits get below .14 or so. (which are actually kind of useless) I don't normally shoot this way, and would never try it in a match. And I do know that I'm riding the trigger and timing the gun at this rate of speed.

I had wondered if this was the cause of the hammer follow, or if I just didn't know how to do a trigger that could run 100% of the time when shooting .12-.14 splits.

Having one of the greatest gunsmiths of all time point it out as a possiblity really makes me feel better. Thanks!

[Flexmoney]

Any chance, that with the light triggers, that when the slide slams shut (at about, what...the 0.07 second mark?)...the hammer/trigger is bouncing some?

Stack that in with all the other things we have going on...

Since we (Practical Pistol Competition Shooters) are about teh only people in the world running the guns at these speeds...

And...we all have light triggers.

I wonder if making the trigger/hammer have a lot more tension would make this go away? Of course, that might not be a happy fix, but could prove useful for trouble shooting purposes.

[EricW]

Are the folks that are having following issues reducing the hammer/sear engagement as part of the trigger job?

[MikeFoley]

EricW,

The parts in my gun do not have "reduced" engagement area.

[Brazos Custom]

I did not do a trigger job on your gun at Nationals. What I did was drop in a premium set of parts that have the angles set for the mid point of what works in most STI/SV guns. There is a big difference between the two. As I told you at Nationals it would probably at least get you through the match. There is a big difference between doing a trigger job in the shop with all the jigs, guages, and microscope available and dropping in a set of parts at the table during a match. That trigger group works great in most cases but in some guns you will have to adjust the angles of the parts to the particular gun.

[MikeFoley]

Bob,

I appreciate you taking the time to help me get through the match. I certainly got my money's worth out of the kit, and I am still using it. You told me that this might not fix the problem, and my gun issues are certainly no reflection on you whatsoever.

I would recommend you anytime, you were polite, forward, and really helped me at a time when you certainly could have been working your booth at the Nationals instead. Not many guys would take the time to do this while setup there and shooting the match themselves.

I only purchased a drop in kit which was installed in minutes at the vendor area at PASA, not a full trigger job.

[MikeFoley]

Flex,

Thanks for your post. I had my local smith take the trigger above 5 pounds, and I could still make it do this. I too thought it might help to increase the pull, but it did not.

[EricW]

foe...,

God knows I'm a hard-core do-it yerselfer, but why not simply send the gun to Bob (or another top 'smith) and give them the opportunity to do the job right? It sounds like your particular gun is on the extreme end of the tolerance scale and needs some serious attention.

[MikeFoley]

EricW,

I have considered this very option. I am concerned that throwing more money at this will simply not solve the problem. I have let many people shoot my gun, and they cannot create this malfunction. Several of them can get .11 splits all day long. One other guy can do this to my gun, but I can do it on command. There are guns built by other top smiths doing this, I have fired two, and recieved a lot of PMs and emails from people with the problem.

[EricW]

I have to ask then, what is the point in continuing this discussion?

[MikeFoley]

When I started this thread almost two months ago, I needed help. Help came in a lot of varieties. I actually fixed one of my gun problems due to a clear solution provided to me early on.

Until Ross Carter posted, no one would readily admit that this could be user error and require special attention. This was just two days ago. There are many BEers who have contacted me on this and asked to remain anonymous. They too had been through all of the parts, gunsmiths, and fixes. They were relieved to discover others with the issue, but were past hope. Several switched to Paras and Caspians, including a pro or two.

As long as the thread gets posts, I will reply. If the moderators feel it is of no benefit to the forum, then I will drop it. I was surprised at the lack of open-minded interest. "Send it to...Buy a..." were common replies to me and to the others who expressed their frustration about this issue.

I do not live to post to a public forum or be seen and heard. I try to only post when I have input that is of value to others, or when I am seeking a qualified solution myself.

I am trying to change the way I pull the trigger, but years of muscle memory are not easily reversed. I am trying to avoid a short trigger because it feels awkward to me. I may have to use one and accept it.

It is not just about my gun anymore, it is about a lot of guns, some of which I fired and got the same results. I have been careful not to name the gunsmiths the owners claim did their gun. Gunsmiths in general are a proud bunch, and rightfully so. They certainly have more talent and knowledge than I care to posess.

I have not adopted this as a cause. When my gun, or my finger, is fixed, then I will stop seeking help. I will however share my information with others as they need it, and several will.

[moverfive]

here is the question I am curious about - you said initially that you reduced the material on the grip? And then later you said something about the amount of pressure exerted on the gun while you are churning and burning realigned the parts? .....and that folks have shifted back to metal guns because of that pressure problem.

......could it simply be that you reduced too much plastic material from the grip? And therefore nothing you do will solve that until you put a new grip on? And have you given the gun to either Bob or Benny and let them go through it (as opposed to Bob throwing in some parts to get you by).

I ask that because I know folks who have had to replace their grips because they (or whoever customized it) got a little TOO carried away in their reduction. I haven't heard of realigning trigger parts because of that, but definitely with holding mags in the gun. I am curious as I have never heard of anything like this before.

[MikeFoley]

Julie G. told me today of many others that have had this issue including her. She says that I am releasing the trigger too fast. She said long engagement, some pre-travel, and some over-travel are part of the fix. She listed the names, but some of the same top shooters we have already discussed.

I am perplexed at the amount of feedback this past few days as opposed to months of mystery.

BTW, moverfive, I am on my second grip. The first was reduced and textured on the gun by a custom builder. The second was purchased pre cut and textured from the same source.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Does the sear spring exhibit any side to side movement in the grip frame? I have seen at least one smith put tape along the edge of the spring to keep it from moving side to side as the grip is flexed.