Big Guy Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Shot a match this weekend and one of the stages consisted on 2 paper targets and 8 steel targets, all to be shot within a box. The main debate during the stage setup was regarding the required reload. The COF indicated that a reload was required, but it didn’t specified when (e.g., after first shot and before last). Several shooters pointed out that this needed to be specified under the COF. However, the response from the stage designer was that the rulebook does not require indicating when to reload as part of the COF. Anyway, the statement regarding the reload was added to the COF and the match went on. My question is, in stages where more than 8 shots are required from a single position, does the rulebook specifically requires that the reload(s) occur after the first shoot and before the last? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Taliani Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'm unaware of any such requirement within the rulebook. An exception to general rule that reloads can't be required is: "1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 To clarify, this particular range has limited space and as such, some of the stages are setup with the use of shooting boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) If all it said was a reload was required and I was shooting a limited or Open gun I would have gamed the heck out of it. I would shoot all 8 pieces of steel, both paper targets then at my leisure reload my gun, then unload and show clear. Reload was then completed totally off the clock and would be correct according to the stage description if it did not say after first shot and before last shot. If it said after first shot and before last shot and they were all set up in a row etc and the ammo was avaliable I would do the same as before shooting all the targets and then reload the gun and the second the mag was seated set the round off down range. We shot a stage like that before and that was what the vast majority of the people did with the ammo after they saw it done once as there was no need to stop with one target left, reload then have to engage it when you were right there anyway. Remember if you see a hole they left in the stage never ask if its allowed before the shooting starts as it gives someone time to change the stage layout or write in some additional stuff on the COF stage description. Simply smile, keep your mouth shut and do it and prepare to explain the error and how your way satisfied all parts of the rulebook and COF after your done doing it Edited November 5, 2012 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Sounds like just a poorly written COF description to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I have found clever ways to game certain stages like the one in question... only to have the stage thrown out and not counted for that match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike l m Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 If the COF has holes in it, the gamers will use it. So will I. I am with EkuJustice. Just smile and shoot it. Then explain if you need to. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 In my opinion throwing out a stage that someone figured out how to game that does not create any safety issues etc for the sole reason that someone figured out a way to shoot it better than someone else is kind of a cheap thing to do. The option to shoot it that way was avaliable to ANYONE else if they would have thought to do it the same way. The better you know the rules, the more closely you examine the stage description, the more creative you can get on your approach to shooting a COF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Like you, my intent was to game it to the max, but wanted to make sure it was within the "rules". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Had a stage like this at my club some years ago. I was out of state during that match. The stage briefing required a reload, but didn't say when. Everyone on one squad did the smart thing...reloaded after the last shot. A shooter on another squad who didn't think of that tactic took umbrage with them. Almost came to blows. Yeah, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you are the first squad to shoot it and you recognize a mistake, I believe it is your duty and obligation to fix it. Bring it to the MDs attention and then live with whatever he/she does. If you are not the first squad, shoot the squad as layed out in the WSB observing all rules in the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you are the first squad to shoot it and you recognize a mistake, I believe it is your duty and obligation to fix it. Bring it to the MDs attention and then live with whatever he/she does. If you are not the first squad, shoot the squad as layed out in the WSB observing all rules in the rule book. I disagree on that, if its a safety issue I feel its your obligation to bring it up. If its something like this where there is a way to shoot it other than Intended I don't think there is any duty to bring it up. In my mind gaming is just part of this sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 If you are the first squad to shoot it and you recognize a mistake, I believe it is your duty and obligation to fix it. Bring it to the MDs attention and then live with whatever he/she does. If you are not the first squad, shoot the squad as layed out in the WSB observing all rules in the rule book. What if it wasn't a mistake and the stage designer meant to do it this way? Just to "confuse" the shooters. Again, I'm just curious to see if there is a specific rule that covers this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) All this talk of gaming the stage, or that the designer wrote the WSB to confuse the shooters, to me, is nonsense. Either you know the rulebook or you don't. This goes for both the shooters and the stage designer. Once the (legal) stage is on the ground and the WSB is posted, the stage is shot according to the rulebook. The fact that nobody in the history of the universe ever foresaw it being shot the way I/you/he/she shot it is just fine. In fact, that is testament to the true genius of this sport -- Freestyle! People who get upset because somebody knew more about the rules than they did and thus came up with a better game plan during the walk through period provided by the rules ... to me those people are in the wrong sport. There is a sport that provides a script for how the stage is to be shot. They also provide you with a canned fantasy about the scenario. They are very accommodating in that sport from what I can tell ... Edited November 6, 2012 by lawboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 what should be done if someone finds an unintended hole in the rules that completely underminds the intent of the stage is that it should be declared a forbidden action. Rule 3.2.6. allows for that. I would rule that waiting until after the last shot to perform the manditory reload a forbidden action. I'm a gamer too but when you find a way to perform part of the stage off the clock that completely ruins the stage for the hole match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 what should be done if someone finds an unintended hole in the rules that completely underminds the intent of the stage is that it should be declared a forbidden action. Rule 3.2.6. allows for that. I would rule that waiting until after the last shot to perform the manditory reload a forbidden action. I'm a gamer too but when you find a way to perform part of the stage off the clock that completely ruins the stage for the hole match. WHo determines what is "an unintended hole in the rules"? And there is NO SUCH THING as INTENT when it comes to USPSA stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 what should be done if someone finds an unintended hole in the rules that completely underminds the intent of the stage is that it should be declared a forbidden action. Rule 3.2.6. allows for that. I would rule that waiting until after the last shot to perform the manditory reload a forbidden action. I'm a gamer too but when you find a way to perform part of the stage off the clock that completely ruins the stage for the hole match. WHo determines what is "an unintended hole in the rules"? And there is NO SUCH THING as INTENT when it comes to USPSA stages. Have you read the classifier course book? (Bold added by me.) Every possible effort has been made to ensure that all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and course design experience. These include Range Officers, Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master Instructors, and the Director of the National Range Officers Institute. The nature of the project is such that there are probably undetected errors in spite of all that effort. In most cases the intent of the course will be obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 what should be done if someone finds an unintended hole in the rules that completely underminds the intent of the stage is that it should be declared a forbidden action. Rule 3.2.6. allows for that. I would rule that waiting until after the last shot to perform the manditory reload a forbidden action. I'm a gamer too but when you find a way to perform part of the stage off the clock that completely ruins the stage for the hole match. Forget that. If I wanted to have to worry about stifling creativity and Failure to Do Right penalties, I'd stick to IDPA matches. Freestyle is about letting the shooter solve the problem within the parameters of the rules. If the stage designer didn't think it through enough, he/she can consider it a learning experience for the next match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 what should be done if someone finds an unintended hole in the rules that completely underminds the intent of the stage is that it should be declared a forbidden action. Rule 3.2.6. allows for that. I would rule that waiting until after the last shot to perform the manditory reload a forbidden action. I'm a gamer too but when you find a way to perform part of the stage off the clock that completely ruins the stage for the hole match. WHo determines what is "an unintended hole in the rules"? And there is NO SUCH THING as INTENT when it comes to USPSA stages. Have you read the classifier course book? (Bold added by me.) Every possible effort has been made to ensure that all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and course design experience. These include Range Officers, Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master Instructors, and the Director of the National Range Officers Institute. The nature of the project is such that there are probably undetected errors in spite of all that effort. In most cases the intent of the course will be obvious. USPSA requests that you honor that intent. Oh, I didn't realize the CoF the OP mentioned was a classifier stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 IMO, it's no different than being able to see targets from a position that the stage designer thought he had barricaded but didn't. First thing I do when I walk up to a stage is try to figure out if the designer left a hole for me to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The only way a stage designer learns is when the "gamers" come along and figure out how to shoot it faster and more efficiently. If there is a hole we will find it and exploit it to our advantage. It also teaches the less experienced shooters to really look at the stage and verbiage in the course description. That’s how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 My question is, in stages where more than 8 shots are required from a single position, does the rulebook specifically requires that the reload(s) occur after the first shoot and before the last? the rule book does not require a reload anywhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 My question is, in stages where more than 8 shots are required from a single position, does the rulebook specifically requires that the reload(s) occur after the first shoot and before the last? the rule book does not require a reload anywhere... Well this stage sounds like a Speed Shoot so the rule book does require a reload, it just doesn't say when, just that you cant have more than 8 shots without mandating one. I would like to see the rule book be more specific on when it has to happen but for now it does not. Mike 1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 it isnt requiring more than 8 rounds to be fired without a reload you can shoot more than 8 rounds with out a reload though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildot1 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 what should be done if someone finds an unintended hole in the rules that completely underminds the intent of the stage is that it should be declared a forbidden action. Rule 3.2.6. allows for that. I would rule that waiting until after the last shot to perform the manditory reload a forbidden action. I'm a gamer too but when you find a way to perform part of the stage off the clock that completely ruins the stage for the hole match. I would rule that you should not be RO'ing, since in my poor humble opinion you do not understand the term "freestyle". FWIW Mildot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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