DQ / Bump to Open for Belt Placement?

[38SuperDub]

I searched the PDF of the rule book and the word "loops" ONLY appears in one spot ("loop" appears once but it talks about a "loop-hole"):

"Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops.

So if it wasnt for the waist issue which was just said - and for a sewn on belt loop issue - how was she suppose to know that this was not allowed if it wasn't in the rule book?

Edited October 22, 2012 by bsdubois00

[Nik Habicht]

I searched the PDF of the rule book and the word "loops" ONLY appears in one spot ("loop" appears once but it talks about a "loop-hole"):

"Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops.

So if it wasnt for the waist issue which was just said - and for a sewn on belt loop issue - how was she suppose to know that this was not allowed if it wasn't in the rule book?

I'll bite -- you quoted the rule (5.2.3) above, but stopped reading a little too soon. The next subrule reads:

5.2.3.1 Female competitors may be permitted (if so authorized in Appendix D) to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major).

Then when you look at Appendix D4, item 11, you get this:

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies No

That's presented in chart form in the appendix, so it looks a little funny in quotes here, but I think you get the idea......

[38SuperDub]

Read Troy's reason for the bump to open. He said that it wasn't due to the position of the belt it was due to the sewn on belt loops she was using.

This is what I can't find anywhere.

Had he said her position of the belt not being on her waist was the issue I would agree. BUT he specifically said this was NOT the reason for the bump.

[38SuperDub]

It's not really about waist location. It's about shooting with lowered loops, which the competitor in question did, hence the move to Open.

Since I made the call, I thought I'd clear up any confusion about it. It's a violation of a division rule, and the consequences are clear.

I'm sure a definition of "waist", relevant to USPSA gun belt wear, will be soon forthcoming.

Troy

See

Edited October 22, 2012 by bsdubois00

[mactiger]

OK, perhaps I wasn't clear. There is considerable discussion on this concerning other female shooters whose belt appears to be too low to some. However, their belt is being worn through the belt loops on their pants, not through another set sewn on to drop the belt to the hip position (top of the femur, basically). The competitor in question WAS wearing her belt through lowered loops, not through the original loops on her clothing, but on another, sewn on, lowered set, which dropped the gun drastically lower. She was therefore in violation of equipment placement rules for Production Division, and was moved to Open Division, where carry through lowered loops is allowed. That's what I meant by "not really about waist location...).

Clear now?

[Bergie]

Troy just curious - what rule says the lowered loops is a bump to open? Not doubting you just trying to make myself more familiar with the rule book.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

[38SuperDub]

Thanks Troy - so basically it was MORE of the POSITION of the belt and not the fact that she was using other belt loops right?

I agree that the position seems to satisfy 5.2.3.1 I was just confused when you said it wasn't the "WAIST" issue and was the belt loop issue since the rule book never mentioned "aftermarket" belt loops.

Thanks for clearing up!

FYI 6.2.5.1 applies to rules in the rule book - not rules NOT in the rule book - I thought by reading Troy's previous response he was saying that the only reason she was moved was because she was using "aftermarket" belt loops - which is noplace covered in the book which means you can't use 6.2.5.1

[Flexmoney]

I am late to the conversation, I believe this is the rule in question (?),

5.2.3.1 Female competitors may be permitted (if so authorized in

Appendix D) to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip

level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below

the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity

major).

When you look at Appendix D for Production division, the variance for 5.2.3.1 is not allowed.

[motosapiens]

I am late to the conversation, I believe this is the rule in question (?),

5.2.3.1 Female competitors may be permitted (if so authorized in

Appendix D) to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip

level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below

the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity

major).

When you look at Appendix D for Production division, the variance for 5.2.3.1 is not allowed.

That has been pointed out, and it seems fairly clear. I think there are a couple of other issues that are a bit confusing:

1. It *appears* that many other production competitors, both men and women, had their gun belts at approximately the same location as Svetlana. However she had additional beltloops sewn on her skirt that were lower. Troy seems to be saying the lower belt-loops were the problem, rather than the actual position of the belt wrt to her anatomy. That makes it seem to me like if she had simply been wearing a lower-waisted skirt, that had belt loops at the top, but in the same absolute position relative to her anatomy, she would have been ok. Is that the case?

2. It appears that almost no one in production is actually wearing their gunbelt at waist level, at least according to the most common definitions of 'waist' that can be found. So it seems as tho as long as you wear your gun belt through the oem belt loops of a fairly normal pair of pants (or shorts or skirt), no one will complain, but if you put artificially lower loops on, then you may be judged to not be in compliance with production requirements. Is that approximately the case?

[Flexmoney]

I think the case is that she had her belt down on her ass. (not approximately)

[Outsydlooknin75]

So basically she tried gaming the belt position and got caught.

Now had she worn spandex underneath and had custom pants to allow the belt to be worn thru the oem loops and the waistband where she had it, then it seems as if she would have been fine.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

[38SuperDub]

Do what?

You lost me at spandex

[BritinUSA]

She mostly shoots IPSC where the belt can be worn at hip level for women in Production. She most likely did not realise the USPSA belt position is waist level for men and women. Her setup was legal in IPSC.

[DrawandDuck]

I think the case is that she had her belt down on her ass. (not approximately)

Maybe everyone can grasp that concept!!!

[remoandiris]

I think the case is that she had her belt down on her ass. (not approximately)

Maybe everyone can grasp that concept!!!

Hopefully no one gets slapped!!

Edited October 22, 2012 by remoandiris

[ysued]

She mostly shoots IPSC where the belt can be worn at hip level for women in Production. She most likely did not realise the USPSA belt position is waist level for men and women. Her setup was legal in IPSC.

I don't know this shooters, but when I went back to my hometown and shot under IPSC Rules, it was MY responsibility to make sure that my rig was legal for the IPSC rules and MY fault alone if I didn't follow the rules for the game I was playing.

I was placed in Open at the 2005 Area 3 because I had a Plastic Grip Plug on my G17, My bad, I didn't read Production Rules, I didn't have anyone but ME to blame.

[DrawandDuck]

Must be the "thing" with ladies in IPSC, did you see the picture at top of pg 31 in the new issue of Front Sight of Tal Shapira? You can get a good look at the 2nd set of belt loops below the orig. ones....can't really see the belt as it is so low in the picture..

Edited October 26, 2012 by DrawandDuck

[Mo Hepworth]

The belt can be lower, by and inch or two, but I would assume you can adjust the holster height most times, as well as mag pouches.

in the end,it really had nothing to do with shooting ability.

[wes777]

So, if you were going to shoot IPSC in another country, you wouldn't be absolutely sure you were up on the rules before the match, at least in the division you intend to compete? Sounds like she got caught with her belt around her (um) buttox.

I understand the back and forth over this, i just think that competitors at that level know what they are doing... And sometimes get caught doing it.

She can afford new pants for a match. I afford different mag pouches when i shoot idpa, doesnt stop all the FTDR penalties.... I get those for breaking the rules, alot.