38SuperDub Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 I don't mind their being requirements but think there should be consequences specifically laid out. I can see where the above rule would throw someone to open however they still wouldn't be in compliance with open requirements. I say 1 chance to fix equipment to be legal then shoot for no score. Whatever it is. Should be laid out clear IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I am curious as to when the rule was acted upon? After one stage....two stages,...the last stage? I would like to know who pointed it out, as she obviously shot all the stages. All the other RO's could have said something. OR,.maybe they told her at the first and she ignored them? I doubt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 are the rulings made public? Ie: is it on paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I am curious as to when the rule was acted upon? After one stage....two stages,...the last stage? I would like to know who pointed it out, as she obviously shot all the stages. All the other RO's could have said something. OR,.maybe they told her at the first and she ignored them? I doubt that. If I remember my class with George, he mentioned that as an RO, "try" and ask what division the shooter is shooting. So an RO, you can correct the equipment if needed AND count shots 8/9/10/11 for SS, Prod or L10. If she shot more than 1 stage already and got corrected on the 2nd stage, bump to open. 1st stage, if RO notices the violation before her first shot of the entire match, correctable. NOW.. Mo, I doubt that she ignored it too.. unless.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 No score then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I am pointing out the obvious....she shot all the stages. Her scores were still entered in production division as of this morning. My argument would be...the holster or mag pouches must have moved on the belt at some point. IF she just had the horrible luck to be corrected AFTER she shot the last stage i, I would then ask why no one corrected her in the previous 17 stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ok lets make this a tad more fun. What if an OPEN shooter has a belt below the waist and you catch it on the 2nd stage - THEN what do you do? Do you get bumped FROM open TO open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Does ANYONE know a rule that states what happens for violating a belt rule? or ANY equipment rule for that matter? Why is it "Bump to Open" just because that is how its always been? Is tehre a rule that says you are bumped to open? No offense, but your question(s) seem a bit 'rambling'. Maybe some of the edits made that make it seem that way, and if so, I guess I'm late to the party. Sorry. Going to your question above, "Why move to Open?" There are mostly two schools of thought on that. One, because that's the division where just about anydamnthing is allowed, so whatever equipment violation occured in the original division would be OK there. It's any acceptable place to drop the shooter. Second position is, because it's meant to HURT. Yeah. That's right. Play too close to the edge on gear, intentional or not (and often enough times it IS intentional), and shooting against a full-blown, Supercharged, 30-round, 8,000 horsepoweer Nitro-powered optically-sighted Open blaster will make you think carefully about doing that again. You also seemed to ask about what happens if a certain equipment violation is illegal even for Open. Well. . . .shooting for no score is the outcome, and they can possibly brag that no one came anywhere close to their score. (ETA: I embrace both schools. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ok lets make this a tad more fun. What if an OPEN shooter has a belt below the waist and you catch it on the 2nd stage - THEN what do you do? Do you get bumped FROM open TO open? Ugh... I would call the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Does ANYONE know a rule that states what happens for violating a belt rule? or ANY equipment rule for that matter? Why is it "Bump to Open" just because that is how its always been? Is tehre a rule that says you are bumped to open? No offense, but your question(s) seem a bit 'rambling'. Maybe some of the edits made that make it seem that way, and if so, I guess I'm late to the party. Sorry. Going to your question above, "Why move to Open?" There are mostly two schools of thought on that. One, because that's the division where just about anydamnthing is allowed, so whatever equipment violation occured in the original division would be OK there. It's any acceptable place to drop the shooter. Second position is, because it's meant to HURT. Yeah. That's right. Play too close to the edge on gear, intentional or not (and often enough times it IS intentional), and shooting against a full-blown, Supercharged, 30-round, 8,000 horsepoweer Nitro-powered optically-sighted Open blaster will make you think carefully about doing that again. You also seemed to ask about what happens if a certain equipment violation is illegal even for Open. Well. . . .shooting for no score is the outcome, and they can possibly brag that no one came anywhere close to their score. (ETA: I embrace both schools. ) That actually is 100% false - alot of the placement of holster and belt requirements are the EXACT SAME for every division - Look at rule 10 and 11 for EVERY division in Appendix 10 they are ALL identical. What right do you have to bump someone for shooting for no score? For an equipment in a wrong position? Why do you let a competitor fix one equipment issue but not another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 That actually is 100% false - alot of the placement of holster and belt requirements are the EXACT SAME for every division - Look at rule 10 and 11 for EVERY division in Appendix 10 they are ALL identical. What right do you have to bump someone for shooting for no score? For an equipment in a wrong position? Why do you let a competitor fix one equipment issue but not another? WHAT??? You're saying a Production division shooter with a magazine mounted where a belt buckle would be is allowed? No. It's not the same for all equipment across all divisions. Get thee to an RO class right away. Simply having Troy's email address is not a suitable substitute. Yeah, some requirements are the same across divisions, but you are painting emotionally, and with a very broad brush. No score would come into play for the example you raised -- more than 2" from the inner side of the belt. That requirement applies to all divisions including Open. If your gear is more than 2", there is no division to move to. No score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) Read my post again: I said "a lot" of the placement of HOLSTER and BELT requirements are the same - which is a true statement Of the 3 rules in the appendix d which talk about holster placement and belt requirements - 2 of the 3 are the same for all divisions. IN MY OPINION this would count for "A LOT" of them. And actually if you came up to me at a major match and said - BAM you are bumped to OPEN because your holster is not 2" from your body - my reply would be "BAM No I'm not - I'm going to the safe table and going to adjust it because the rule book says I have the option to fix it "Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division." Which "Relevant Division" is stupid phrasing because they ALL REQUIRE the same 2" And since you took a cheap shot - maybe someone needs an RO refresher course! Edited October 18, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Read my post again: I said "a lot" of the placement of HOLSTER and BELT requirements are the same - which is a true statement Of the 3 rules in the appendix d which talk about holster placement and belt requirements - 2 of the 3 are the same for all divisions. IN MY OPINION this would count for "A LOT" of them. And actually if you came up to me at a major match and said - BAM you are bumped to OPEN because your holster is not 2" from your body - my reply would be "BAM No I'm not - I'm going to the safe table and going to adjust it because the rule book says I have the option to fix it "Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division." Which "Relevant Division" is stupid phrasing because they ALL REQUIRE the same 2" And since you took a cheap shot - maybe someone needs an RO refresher course! So you jump from "100% wrong" to "a lot" pretty easily. The rulebook doesn't. And if I came up to you at a major match after finding you had already shot a stage with non-compliant equipment - BAM - you'd go to Open, or in the case of violating item 10 in any division - BAM - you'd be shooting for no score. I wouldn't relish that but it's how it would be. On the other hand, if I or the staff were able to catch it before you shot a stage, I'd gladly let you reconfigure your gear. Hell, I'd loan you the tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) 5.2.5.2 specifically states that I can be given the opportunity to adjust my equipment if found outside the 2" mark - does not state WHEN just states that I CAN - how are you not going to allow a shooter to follow the rule? Also I was pointing out that YOU were 100% wrong in your statement that said "whatever equipment violation occured in the original division would be OK there." and I am 100% correct - Both Appendix 10 and 11 are the SAME for every division - so how would my holster out side of 2" or belt below my waist be LEGAL in open when it specifically says its NOT LEGAL? Edited October 18, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 5.2.5.2 specifically states that I can be given the opportunity to adjust my equipment if found outside the 2" mark - does not state WHEN just states that I CAN - how are you not going to allow a shooter to follow the rule? Also I was pointing out that YOU were 100% wrong in your statement that said "whatever equipment violation occured in the original division would be OK there." and I am 100% correct - Both Appendix 10 and 11 are the SAME for every division - so how would my holster out side of 2" or belt below my waist be LEGAL in open when it specifically says its NOT LEGAL? OK, I think I see that on your second point I think we actually agree. 2" applies to ALL divisions and would be for no score. As for WHEN, if someone already shot a stage with illegal equipment, they own that. We might not talking about only one stage, either. What if someone shot 17 of 18 stages? As RM, I would not allow a reshoot on 17 stages after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) And I see your point on that - however the rule book says you have to give the shooter the option to fix it - so I think you have to give them the option to make it right. If they can't / won't / or don't then bump to open - Honestly - some blade tech holsters are past 2" from the factory - so if the shooter is 1/4" outside of that - the rule gives him the ability to adjust it - I think that it is only fair that he has this option. Competitive Advantage is used a lot in the rule book - let me ask you - does that 1/4" give him a "Significant" competitive advantage? No - so why not allow him to, per the rules, fix it and move on? ALSO - don't you think if the rule was written clearer it would make things easier :-) Edited October 18, 2012 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 And I see your point on that - however the rule book says you have to give the shooter the option to fix it - so I think you have to give them the option to make it right. If they can't / won't / or don't then bump to open - Honestly - some blade tech holsters are past 2" from the factory - so if the shooter is 1/4" outside of that - the rule gives him the ability to adjust it - I think that it is only fair that he has this option. Competitive Advantage is used a lot in the rule book - let me ask you - does that 1/4" give him a "Significant" competitive advantage? No - so why not allow him to, per the rules, fix it and move on? ALSO - don't you think if the rule was written clearer it would make things easier :-) Yeah, and I would give the competitor the chance to fix it -- before beginning shooting. Don't forget 5.2.5.3 which says the equipment must not be moved. Maybe the wording between the two could be cleared up a bit. What would you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Give a time frame: "If a competitor is found to be not in compliance BEFORE the match starts he is allowed to adjust, once the match starts they will then be shooting for NO SCORE" OR "At any time if a competitors holster / mag pouches is / are found to be greater than 2" from belt, they are given the opportunity to adjust them and become legal, if they can not, will not, or do not, then they will be shooting for NO SCORE" Both would give a TIME FRAME for fixing and a CONSEQUENCE for not complying - the current rule does neither Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 ALSO - if you let someone adjust a holster distance from their body - why not let them adjust the belt location on their body? Either let them fix BOTH of the violations or NEITHER but not each a different way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Last post - don't you like how 5.2.5.2 contradicts 5.2.5.3 LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Last post - don't you like how 5.2.5.2 contradicts 5.2.5.3 LOL Nope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I agree that 5.2.5.2 seems to muddy the water a bit, however, 6.2.5.1 pretty clearly sets out the penalty for using equipment during a COF that does not meet the requirements of your declared division. If a woman is using a belt in production division that is not at waist level during a COF, she is going to open division where belts around the hips of women are allowed. (Note that there is no exception for belt placement for women in production.) I would suggest that the language of 5.2.5.2 presumes that the illegal equipment has not been used in a COF at the point of its discovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I agree that 5.2.5.2 seems to muddy the water a bit, however, 6.2.5.1 pretty clearly sets out the penalty for using equipment during a COF that does not meet the requirements of your declared division. If a woman is using a belt in production division that is not at waist level during a COF, she is going to open division where belts around the hips of women are allowed. (Note that there is no exception for belt placement for women in production.) I would suggest that the language of 5.2.5.2 presumes that the illegal equipment has not been used in a COF at the point of its discovery. THIS! ^^^^^^ At a National championship I would hope such a decision would have been well thought out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Loser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 She also won Production at the US IPSC Nationals shooting an illegal gun but didn't get caught. Cheating doesn't get you anywhere, eventually it comes back to bite you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 She also won Production at the US IPSC Nationals shooting an illegal gun but didn't get caught. Cheating doesn't get you anywhere, eventually it comes back to bite you. What gun was that and why was it illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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