What's your call?

[Skydiver]

They shooting frangibles? When they crack the holes look like that.

I think that rule 5.5.6 potentially disqualifies frangible bullets.

[Jim Norman]

That is a Double. The hole is shaped like a figure 8. I tumbler would generally have a square end and straight sides.

[PKT1106]

Where is the overlay?

You don't actually need an overlay or two to see what's there, do you?

If you had asked for an overlay, this thread wouldn't be here.

We can speculate all we want until an overlay is used.

Edited October 1, 2012 by PKT1106

[a.roberts]

Where is the overlay?

You don't actually need an overlay or two to see what's there, do you?

If you had asked for an overlay, this thread wouldn't be here.

We can speculate all we want until an overlay is used.

RO and RM both broke out overlays. RO used one, RM used two.

[ninemmbill]

2 Alpha

[Loop51]

2 Alpha all day if I am running the timer...Sorry you got hosed man.

[Flexmoney]

Somebody remind me to write an article for Front Sight on how to use overlays. We had one a few years ago that Troy wrote, but we need another, I think.

BTW, save that target.

[sperman]

How does someone who would call that A-M get to be a RM at a L2 match?

[bikerburgess]

I would love to see this with a overlay, it looks a lot like the upper grease ring is a smaller dia than the lower grease ring. so if the shooter was shooting a 40 maybe it knocked off a paster from a earlier 9mm.

Mike

[glefos]

I would love to see this with a overlay, it looks a lot like the upper grease ring is a smaller dia than the lower grease ring. so if the shooter was shooting a 40 maybe it knocked off a paster from a earlier 9mm.

Mike

Good point.

[Nik Habicht]

Was there a large height differential between the target and the shooter? Akin to low target, and possibly elevated shooter, or low target shot at close range/steep angle?

[a.roberts]

Target's shoulders were pretty close to my shoulders (I'm 6'' 1" ish) and was 10-15 yards away, I didn't think to step it off.

[sperman]

IMO, the difference in hole size isn't enough to support A-M. I would want to see some other evidence of a missing paster.

If the first bullet went through virgin target, and the second bullet went mostly through a hole that was already there, I can't be sure the 2nd bullet wouldn't make a slightly smaller hole.

[a.roberts]

There was *no* paster rolled, crumpled, with a hole through it or anything else when we walked down to score the targets.

This is how the RO and RM were using a single overlay, centering it on the hole.

Using overlay radius on grease ring of top hole.

Using overlay radius on grease ring of bottom hole.

Using two overlays.

[Sin-ster]

2 A. Fo' sho.

I think a huge problem is that some folks are actually ignoring the grease ring when they overlay and only looking at the hole. (In this case... Even the HOLE tells the tale...)

Lemme tell ya that the 124 MG JHP's I shoot do NOT leave a .355" hole in the target; the grease ring, however, is definitely the right size.

Side note-- define frustration. Someone with (verified) 20/10 vision arguing a perf hit with someone that has to break out their reading glasses just to read the timer... "Trust me-- that's an Alpha."

[whitedog]

2 alpha. I would still use 2 overlays just fer the heck of it, using grease rings as reference.

[BillChunn]

Alpha. Mike. No shoot..... OH... Wait... that's what they usually give me.... j/k

After looking at enough holes in cardboard, any CRO worth is salt can see this is two alpha. I agree with everybody else, you got hosed.

Edited October 2, 2012 by BillChunn

[gino_aki]

You oughta shoot "out of town" over here some time...I'm sort of noted for giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt as far as scoring is concerned.

That would be two Alphas without even thinking twice.

[a.roberts]

You oughta shoot "out of town" over here some time...I'm sort of noted for giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt as far as scoring is concerned.

That would be two Alphas without even thinking twice.

I don't want the benefit of the doubt. I want what I earned.

But I do think Hawaii would be pretty nice to visit.

[Jaxshooter]

I would call it 2 alpha. you don't really need the overlays to see it. They blew that call in my opinion.

[sperman]

Andrew,

I don't mean this to come across the wrong way, but what don't we know? I find it hard to believe a couple of experienced RO's would call that Apha-Mike as it is being presented. What was their explanation for 1 bullet making a hole that shape?

[a.roberts]

Andrew,

I don't mean this to come across the wrong way, but what don't we know? I find it hard to believe a couple of experienced RO's would call that Apha-Mike as it is being presented. What was their explanation for 1 bullet making a hole that shape?

Sper,

It's not coming across the wrong way, I understand where you're coming from. Once the RM got called, I figured it'd be properly called. I thought, "He's the RM. He'll see the second radius." I've RO'ed three Lvl 2's and a Lvl 3, I know when a hole ain't right.

Look at the first picture in that set of four I posted last night. They were centering it on the hole, ignoring the grease rings. Their approach was that the entire hole fit within the circle of one overlay, so it must be an A-M. It was so obvious to me what it was and I was so confused by their misuse of the overlay(s) that I couldn't effectively communicate, "Look at the grease rings." After 2 or 3 minutes I'd had enough of trying to explain it that I said, "Fine, Alpha-Mike," just so I could touch the target in an attempt to explain what I was seeing. He still didn't get it.

Could I have argued about it until the cows came home? Yep. Should I have? Maybe. But I figured by that point my match was toast anyway as I'd had more than a couple of mikes.

[Sin-ster]

Andrew,

I don't mean this to come across the wrong way, but what don't we know? I find it hard to believe a couple of experienced RO's would call that Apha-Mike as it is being presented. What was their explanation for 1 bullet making a hole that shape?

Sper,

It's not coming across the wrong way, I understand where you're coming from. Once the RM got called, I figured it'd be properly called. I thought, "He's the RM. He'll see the second radius." I've RO'ed three Lvl 2's and a Lvl 3, I know when a hole ain't right.

Look at the first picture in that set of four I posted last night. They were centering it on the hole, ignoring the grease rings. Their approach was that the entire hole fit within the circle of one overlay, so it must be an A-M. It was so obvious to me what it was and I was so confused by their misuse of the overlay(s) that I couldn't effectively communicate, "Look at the grease rings." After 2 or 3 minutes I'd had enough of trying to explain it that I said, "Fine, Alpha-Mike," just so I could touch the target in an attempt to explain what I was seeing. He still didn't get it.

Could I have argued about it until the cows came home? Yep. Should I have? Maybe. But I figured by that point my match was toast anyway as I'd had more than a couple of mikes.

EXACTLY what I was referring to earlier-- ignoring the grease rings and using the hole for the Overlay.

Yeah, Flex-- write that article!

[sperman]

Andrew,

I don't mean this to come across the wrong way, but what don't we know? I find it hard to believe a couple of experienced RO's would call that Apha-Mike as it is being presented. What was their explanation for 1 bullet making a hole that shape?

Sper,

It's not coming across the wrong way, I understand where you're coming from. Once the RM got called, I figured it'd be properly called. I thought, "He's the RM. He'll see the second radius." I've RO'ed three Lvl 2's and a Lvl 3, I know when a hole ain't right.

Look at the first picture in that set of four I posted last night. They were centering it on the hole, ignoring the grease rings. Their approach was that the entire hole fit within the circle of one overlay, so it must be an A-M. It was so obvious to me what it was and I was so confused by their misuse of the overlay(s) that I couldn't effectively communicate, "Look at the grease rings." After 2 or 3 minutes I'd had enough of trying to explain it that I said, "Fine, Alpha-Mike," just so I could touch the target in an attempt to explain what I was seeing. He still didn't get it.

Could I have argued about it until the cows came home? Yep. Should I have? Maybe. But I figured by that point my match was toast anyway as I'd had more than a couple of mikes.

I think you are lucky you got to keep the target. At SSN this year, a squadmate asked for the RM to make a call on the target. After the call was made, the CRO destroyed the target and put it in the trash. I heard him say "We don't need to see pictures of that showing up on Enos."

On a related note, on my stage at Ga State, we had 2 calls to the RM for hits on a target about 1 hour apart. When the RM showed up the 2nd time, both targets were laying on the table. The RO waiting for the RM to show up (I was busy running shooters) new which target was which, but in hindsight there was an opportunity for confusion. Once the call has been made the target needs to go away, or be marked in some way. I guess you could just paste it.

[warpspeed]

Sorry man, you got screwed.

That is certainly 2 A's.

What kind of match was this ?