When can you release safety during draw

[motosapiens]

I tried to search for a while, but didn't get anywhere, even tho it seems like an elementary question.

Once the buzzer sounds, and the shooter draws his weapon, when can the safety be switched off? I personally switch mine off once the pistol is pointed downrange, but I noticed an experienced shooter the other night that was switching the safety off while he gripped the gun in the holster, and then drawing. That *seems* like it's not something I would want to encourage, since a loaded cocked single-action gun pointing at my leg is a bad idea, but is it technically against the rules? I may not have looked hard enough, but I couldn't find a reference in the rulebook. Sorry if I'm being a clueless noob.

[Lee Cabana]

I don't see anything in the rule book at addresses this - I'd say the safety can be disengaged as soon as the start signal goes off.

[HoMiE]

I'd say take a look at..

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

A gun is considered hosltered as long you have not drawn.

Draw - The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

I say the trigger guard has to clear the holster to take safety off.

But I say it would be really difficult for a RO to tell unless you have a really slow draw. Of course the prudent thing would be to disengage the safety as gun is being presented to first target.

Edited September 26, 2012 by HoMiE

[aztecdriver]

I'd say take a look at..

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

A gun is considered hosltered as long you have not drawn.

Draw - The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

I say the trigger guard has to clear the holster to take safety off.

But I say it would be really difficult for a RO to tell unless you have a really slow draw. Of course the rudent thing would be to disengage the safety as gun is being presented to first target.

Just to add to this conversation, holstering is an action. I would agree with you that the gun must clear the holster before the safety is disengaged if the rule read:

Holstering or having a holstered handgun, in any of the following conditions:

I'm making no comment on the safety implications of the practice, I'm merely pointing out the rules state the action of holstering a handgun.

[jester121]

I'd say take a look at..

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

A gun is considered hosltered as long you have not drawn.

Holstering is a verb (technically, it's a gerund in this example, a verb uses as a noun). Holstered is an adjective.

If I click the safety off a holstered gun, I'm not violating the rules because I'm not holstering the gun. I'm gripping it, and I'm in the process of drawing it, but those aren't banned in 10.5.11.

If 10.5.11 said "Having a holstered loaded gun blah blah blah .1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied" then I agree, it would be illegal.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think it might be a participle not a gerund. I guess I should call my dad and ask him... not sure I have 2 hours to spare though....

Edited September 25, 2012 by jester121

[motosapiens]

I'd say take a look at..

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

A gun is considered hosltered as long you have not drawn.

Holstering is a verb (technically, it's a gerund in this example, a verb uses as a noun). Holstered is an adjective.

If I click the safety off a holstered gun, I'm not violating the rules because I'm not holstering the gun. I'm gripping it, and I'm in the process of drawing it, but those aren't banned in 10.5.11.

If 10.5.11 said "Having a holstered loaded gun blah blah blah .1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied" then I agree, it would be illegal.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think it might be a participle not a gerund. I guess I should call my dad and ask him... not sure I have 2 hours to spare though....

This is how I understand it as well. The rules are very clear that I can't put a cocked and loaded gun into my holster with the safety off, but they don't appear to say I can't flip the safety off as I grip the gun, and then continue the draw.

[sperman]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132780&hl=safety&st=0

[PKT1106]

After the start signal, when you draw, you can flip the safety off anytime, just be sure you don't AD during the draw.

[motosapiens]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132780&hl=safety&st=0

I actually saw that thread in my search, but got thrown off by the poll wording:

.. ROs saw him flipping the safety on and off on his loaded gun in his holster

which clearly describes an entirely different situation than disengaging the safety at the very beginning of the draw.

I'll go to end and see if there is anything more definitive than 'legal but not recommended'.

edit: well... that thread was kinda lame, and unfortunately seemed to be mostly focused on toggling the safety on a loaded gun while NOT drawing..

Edited September 25, 2012 by motosapiens

[remoandiris]

If the grip safety works, do other safeties have to work?

[Paul-the new guy]

If the grip safety works, do other safeties have to work?

You are the rule guy... the thumb safety is considered the primary safety.

[CocoBolo]

I'd say use good sense no matter what the rule book says. I've seen 3 people that have shot themselves on the draw, bullet down thru the thigh passing behind the knee cap will definately ruin you match score.

My recommendation is to turn it off after you have established a full both hand grip as you push the gun out. Practice it till it becomes second nature, believe me it won't slow you down.

If I'm your RO please tell me before you do it in the holster so I can get out of the potential path of the bullet.

[remoandiris]

If the grip safety works, do other safeties have to work?

You are the rule guy... the thumb safety is considered the primary safety.

Yeah, you're right...8.1.2.4.

[motosapiens]

I'd say use good sense no matter what the rule book says. I've seen 3 people that have shot themselves on the draw, bullet down thru the thigh passing behind the knee cap will definately ruin you match score.

No argument there. The question was intended to educate me as to whether I can require someone else to use good sense. The fact that people can shoot themselves suggests to me that there's a glaring hole in the safety rules.

[Nik Habicht]

You can't cure stupid with rules. That said, if you flip the safety off in the holster, and if you do it slowly enough that I see it, I already have rules to DQ you under....

Maybe that gets overturned on arb, but I like my chances.....

[Carmoney]

I'd say use good sense no matter what the rule book says. I've seen 3 people that have shot themselves on the draw, bullet down thru the thigh passing behind the knee cap will definately ruin you match score.

You've personally seen this happen to 3 different people?

What type of environment? Shooting matches, law enforcement, or what?

[aztecdriver]

You can't cure stupid with rules. That said, if you flip the safety off in the holster, and if you do it slowly enough that I see it, I already have rules to DQ you under....

Maybe that gets overturned on arb, but I like my chances.....

Even if the rules say having holstered, which they do not, you would have to be 100% certain you saw, not heard, the safety off before the draw, which happens when the trigger is accessible. There's not a lot of time there, and in most cases ill call bs on someone that tells me they saw it.

Rule superficially ignores the holstered condition, you have to resort to the catch all rule, and if you claim you saw it during the draw, I'm not buying it. I don't like the chances there.

Eta. Mine comes off at passing 45

Edited September 26, 2012 by aztecdriver

[Nik Habicht]

You can't cure stupid with rules. That said, if you flip the safety off in the holster, and if you do it slowly enough that I see it, I already have rules to DQ you under....

Maybe that gets overturned on arb, but I like my chances.....

Even if the rules say having holstered, which they do not, you would have to be 100% certain you saw, not heard, the safety off before the draw, which happens when the trigger is accessible. There's not a lot of time there, and in most cases ill call bs on someone that tells me they saw it.

Rule superficially ignores the holstered condition, you have to resort to the catch all rule, and if you claim you saw it during the draw, I'm not buying it. I don't like the chances there.

Eta. Mine comes off at passing 45

Hence the words "slowly enough" in my statement.....

As far as calling BS on me seeing it -- have at it, but that would carry no weight with an arbitration committee by rule.....

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

As far as the rules go, I'd cite both 10.5.11 -- and make the argument that there's a safety principle involved that encompasses more than just the action of holstering, i.e. a greater purpose served by the rule -- as well as citing 10.5. I don't like that -- but I'd like the adrenalin rush of emergency lifesaving measures even less.....

Bottom line, I'd need to be really certain I saw it. It's hard but not impossible -- I looked hard at one competitor who I though was flipping the safety off long before assuming the ready position. Turns out he didn't, and I saw the safety come off shortly after the draw.....

Took me three draws on the multi-string classifier -- so definitely hard, at least initially....

[Lifeislarge]

When I made the change from an XD .45 to my 2011 I had a difficult time getting used to the safety on the new gun. I kept drawing and trying to fire on the first target with the damn safety on. No less than ten guys told me to disengage it as I gripped my gun to draw. This served two purposes, the first being that I'll never have a stall again and two, use it as thumb rest. I REALLY don't want to shoot myself, but I also think it makes sense on the draw. I've seen AD's happen after the draw, safety or no safety.

[CocoBolo]

I'd say use good sense no matter what the rule book says. I've seen 3 people that have shot themselves on the draw, bullet down thru the thigh passing behind the knee cap will definately ruin you match score.

You've personally seen this happen to 3 different people?

What type of environment? Shooting matches, law enforcement, or what?

Yes 1 USPSA, 1 IDPA, and one at a AASA Match. Just bad luck to be on the same squad. 2 Air LIfe, one take in peronal car. Two expierenced shooters one noob. There is a preponderance of evidence that this is a risky practice, although statiscally it is much safter than playing basketball. If one considers this is only my 5th year of shooting and I only average 6 matches a month, the numbers aren't that big.

I'll agree that most of the time is hard to see when the shooter is taking the safety off, I mentored a couple of limited shooters this year and I know those two take it off just like I trained them. I do notice a lot of shooter taking it off slightly before the hands meet, this in my opinion is a bit premature.

Now for those guns that have no safety we would need a rule about when the finger goes into the trigger guard. These guns while owners say that the safety is between the ears have also been involved in AD's where projectiles penetrated the shooter, as a result some retention holsters have been banned from one local club, the finger pushes the retention and as the gun comes up the finger which was pressing on the retention continues that pressure right onto the trigger and bang. The AASA club in this case banned the holsters unless the retention is disabled.

Sorry to have confused the thread it should have been prefaced with while we all know that we should not do this because it is a safety concern, what do the rules give us.

I hurt my back to my typing isn't very good not sure if its the drugs or the pain. Pick one.

Edited September 27, 2012 by CocoBolo

[ebg3]

AD's happen frequently on the draw....I'd much rather AD a few feet in front of me than through the holster and into me. DQ aside, it is an unneccesary risk to disengage the safety in the holster on the draw.

[h4444]

Hmmm....This thread has really got me to thinking. I developed and refined my draw YEARS ago, it is like a subconscious act now after many thousands of repetitions and analysis learning the right/safe way to do it.

BUT, I'm thinking I need to review it to make sure NO bad safety habits have crept in.

I KNOW I don't disengage it while it is in the holster and my preference is after my hands come together and as I'm rolling my weak side hand into my grip as I begin presenting the gun to the target. I'm going to review it later today to make sure I'm not disengaging earlier than I want to.

I want to do it after the gun starts moving toward presentation that way IF something happens I'm not spraying shrapnel around my toes or if it is a seated start I don't sent one through a leg or something, but I want to do it slightly before I'm at eye level that way I don't move the gun/sights as I'm presenting the gun forward/moving toward final alignment for my first shot.

Byron

[aztecdriver]

You can't cure stupid with rules. That said, if you flip the safety off in the holster, and if you do it slowly enough that I see it, I already have rules to DQ you under....

Maybe that gets overturned on arb, but I like my chances.....

Even if the rules say having holstered, which they do not, you would have to be 100% certain you saw, not heard, the safety off before the draw, which happens when the trigger is accessible. There's not a lot of time there, and in most cases ill call bs on someone that tells me they saw it.

Rule superficially ignores the holstered condition, you have to resort to the catch all rule, and if you claim you saw it during the draw, I'm not buying it. I don't like the chances there.

Eta. Mine comes off at passing 45

Hence the words "slowly enough" in my statement.....

As far as calling BS on me seeing it -- have at it, but that would carry no weight with an arbitration committee by rule.....

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

As far as the rules go, I'd cite both 10.5.11 -- and make the argument that there's a safety principle involved that encompasses more than just the action of holstering, i.e. a greater purpose served by the rule -- as well as citing 10.5. I don't like that -- but I'd like the adrenalin rush of emergency lifesaving measures even less.....

Bottom line, I'd need to be really certain I saw it. It's hard but not impossible -- I looked hard at one competitor who I though was flipping the safety off long before assuming the ready position. Turns out he didn't, and I saw the safety come off shortly after the draw.....

Took me three draws on the multi-string classifier -- so definitely hard, at least initially....

I'm sitting here thinking about this - and I'm calling BS all around. First let's take the safety issue.

A gun is not in the holster if the trigger is accessible right? I lift the gun that 1" out of the holster and I can drop the safety off right? How is this any MORE safe than dropping the safety off in the holster. I would argue, in fact, that it's even less so. It's pointed and covering the same stuff it would be had that inch not been drawn. In fact, I'm going to say that it has another factor in that manipulation after draw has more of a chance of having a problem than dropping the safety and drawing with complete mind to finger discipline.

In either case, we both agree that having the gun down range when dropping the safety off is the safe way to go - but unfortunately, the rules do not support that. The rules also do NOT support you, and your attempt to extend them. Did you really attempt to say that you can extend the rules to the greater purpose? No. You can't. If the rules committee intends it to cover unsafety in the holster they, they simply could have wrote it as having the gun holstered as - blah and it would have been fine. It's an action -- holstering... and you don't have the ability to interpret the rule to extend past the words used.

In addition, considering I can snap it off by lifting the gun up 1", and still pass the gun over the same legs, etc, there is NO greater safety issue solved by extending the rule... so you're left with another generic 10.5 - which, if you attempt to apply it to the holstered gun, I'll have to attempt to apply it to the guy that draws the inch and clicks it off - because they are equal in the unsafe gunhandling world.

I hear what cocobolo is telling me, it is bad practice, but i'd gather that they used their bugger picker more than they used their safety thumb to execute those poor models of markansmenship. It's unsafe to "unsafe" before the gun is down range - but with the current rules, and precedent, you aren't going to sell me on DQ'ing in the holster. I'll need more of a consensus on your opinion before I'm sold.

[Nik Habicht]

In addition, considering I can snap it off by lifting the gun up 1", and still pass the gun over the same legs, etc, there is NO greater safety issue solved by extending the rule... so you're left with another generic 10.5 - which, if you attempt to apply it to the holstered gun, I'll have to attempt to apply it to the guy that draws the inch and clicks it off - because they are equal in the unsafe gunhandling world.

I'm good with that. I'm not DQ happy -- I haven't filled two hands worth in a decade of officiating -- and I can't remember ever citing 10.5. I also made a decision long ago, that if I saw something unsafe, I'd call it -- and let the arb fall where it may. I don't need to be right at the arb, to be successful in protecting every person on the range......

Perhaps issuing that stop/dq is enough to get the shooter to refocus his or her attention where it needs to be....

My close friends in the sport are all match directors, stage designers, and ROs -- i.e. the first to be sued in case of an accident. I'll do what I need to, to protect them, and all of the other competitors at the match....

[aztecdriver]

In addition, considering I can snap it off by lifting the gun up 1", and still pass the gun over the same legs, etc, there is NO greater safety issue solved by extending the rule... so you're left with another generic 10.5 - which, if you attempt to apply it to the holstered gun, I'll have to attempt to apply it to the guy that draws the inch and clicks it off - because they are equal in the unsafe gunhandling world.

I'm good with that. I'm not DQ happy -- I haven't filled two hands worth in a decade of officiating -- and I can't remember ever citing 10.5. I also made a decision long ago, that if I saw something unsafe, I'd call it -- and let the arb fall where it may. I don't need to be right at the arb, to be successful in protecting every person on the range......

Perhaps issuing that stop/dq is enough to get the shooter to refocus his or her attention where it needs to be....

My close friends in the sport are all match directors, stage designers, and ROs -- i.e. the first to be sued in case of an accident. I'll do what I need to, to protect them, and all of the other competitors at the match....

Hey nik. I'm really not arguing against you but the entire situation. We all know what is safe is and what is not and why. I'm just not agreeing with the rule base fitting the situation. I'm frustrated with the vagarity we run into here, which is why I'm arguing the contrary. After all there is always the chance the sear on that gun wore and dropping the safety could discharge the weapon. If ts clear of the holster you actually run a greater risk of it hitting bad areas than vs in the holster.

I'm not dq happy either. I hate it in fact. Never have I been so mad as when I had to send someone home at nationals. It visibly upsets me.

My close friends are the same people and I wear those hats as well, so I'm with you.