Paul99354 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Which Vortex mount works best with the Razor HD Gen II 1-6? The 2" offset mount is supposed to work with eye reliefs up to 4"; the 3" offset for reliefs 4"'and greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) The Kahles k16i is rather new to the market. Having been debuted at SHOT 2012, their k16i just started finally delivering about 2 months ago to the domestic commercial market. I know Stefan Wiggins and Ryan Zamberlan are using them. I consider them top shooters as they have consistent finishes in the top 20 or better of the major matches, but not real sure why that matters? I was just concerned as to the way you discounted the Vortex 1-6 by saying the Swarovski was Top Dog. Now I see it was just a subjective opinionated statement; not anything backed by any sort of objective data. ETA since you added some additional info above: The Kahles has 134' FOV; the specs on Midway's page are incorrect. When you hold a Kahles k16i up side by side to a Swaro, its clear there is several feet more FOV at 100 yards. And yes it costs more, but you asked me to name another scope that outperformed the Swaro 1-6. The Kahles looks good interesting to know that its made by Swarovski. I will have to look at one in the future. Thanks for the information. The reason I mentioned pro shooters is they generally use the best stuff and money is often less of an object for them. I.e. if the pros are using a piece of gear it is generally a good product. But hey maybe the Swarovski is total garbage. For the price point it looks like the Vortex will be the scope to beat. Pat Edited October 21, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) I love vortex optics and I am glad their making this scope but the Swarovski is still top dog but at twice the cost. Pat Just curious, what objective data do you have that makes Swarovski Top Dog? Or is it just your subjective opinion? I only ask since being in the optics industry for the past two years; I have been privy to some pretty nice test equipment that is used to objectively measure optical quality. Anything pat owns is the sh$t. He drank the cool-aid like a lot of others. Tell you one thing, my ta-11h is going on the block. It's thing is sick. I do own some nice stuff and I make it a point to do as much research as I can before making a purchase. I believe in the buy once cry once philosophy. I also realize there are other brands I may not own that is also good stuff. As for following the pack, I purchased a CDI version of the Swarovski when it first came out before it became popular in the game. I was torn between it and the S&B short dot at the time. At the time there was no other 1-6. I loved the scope and upgraded to the BRT reticle when it came out. Pat Edited October 21, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinWolv Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 My Vortex 1-6x showed up today. Mounted and played with in the garage, but haven't the range yet. I'm impressed with it so far. Was a little worried about the dot brightness, but not so much now. Very sharp dot. On the Vortex' highest setting, the dot was very comparable, and looked to me to be the same, as the 2nd-to-highest setting on my Aimpoint PRO. Subjective side-by-side in a dimly-lit garage at night. Glass looks great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 The Kahles looks good interesting to know that its made by Swarovski. I will have to look at one in the future. Thanks for the information. The reason I mentioned pro shooters is they generally use the best stuff and money is often less of an object for them. I.e. if the pros are using a piece of gear it is generally a good product. But hey maybe the Swarovski is total garbage. For the price point it looks like the Vortex will be the scope to beat. Pat The Kahles is not made by Swarovski. Its still made by Kahles. Swarovski just owns them and they share technology and design ideas. Kahles is truly the oldest rifle optics manufacturer if I am not mistaken that is still in business. The Swarovski is not garbage. Swarovski has a lane in the birding and PH market. They were however one of the first to make a 1-6 and to truly make a family of 6x zoom ratios which at the time was a huge innovation. I do credit them with that Benchmark. Their color rendition is some of the best on the planet. If you look at optics as a three sided triangle, you have contrast /resolution, color rendition, and light transmission being your key aspects of optical design. Contrast and resolution have to be grouped as the same becasue they are equally dependent for each to function as you cannot have resolution without contrast nor can you have contrast without resolution. While all are equally important, they just cannot be equal because the categories edge each other out and only one will reign supreme in a specific optic design. Color rendition is where Swarovski shines with light transmission being second and resolution/contrast being third. Other optics are in different orders based on their intended design and the direction that the optical prescription was meant to favor. In today's world, clear optics is not a true measure of their capabilities. There are very objective field tests that can be done to compare and measure individual properties of rifle optics. And then there is the world of the mechanical design which is a whole other beast unto itself. Things called reticle tilt, reticle jump, between power deviation, tracking accuracy, tracking repeatability, parallax errors, thermal stability, ability to maintain zero and several other factors all play in to the mechanical design. Here is an interesting tidbit - Daniel Horner won the Blue Ridge Mountain 3 Gun yesterday. As he perused the prize table, he passed up the Swarovski Z6 and took the Kahles k16i after being impressed with the scopes on display at the match as Kahles was there as a sponsor and had a vendor table setup. Looks like they are setting their sights on 3 Gun as a target market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprdave Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Does the ADM Mount come with the Glass? No, no mount is included. Why would they do that? It's better to have the scope price $200.00 or more less. I agree, I only asked because the mount and scope matched in pictures and it looked like they came outta the box together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rckymtnshooter Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I was able to look at one of these last week. When the clerk handed it to me I have to say my first impression was, wow, this thing is heavy. The daylight visibility was great, the clarity was super, and the field of view was amazing. I think I could live with the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Does the ADM Mount come with the Glass? No, no mount is included. Why would they do that? It's better to have the scope price $200.00 or more less. I agree, I only asked because the mount and scope matched in pictures and it looked like they came outta the box together. Are you talking about ...My Photos ? if so ..Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) I got a call from Scott at Vortex this past week. "Nothing official, just two guys talking". Don't hold your breath waiting on a new reticle for the 1-6 Next year. or possibly even in 2014 =they are very very busy keeping up with demand. Like I said = Nothing official just two guy talking. I can tell you that my 1-6 is exceeding my expectations and hopes, pushing my scores up the ladder in spite of my handgun sights disappearing on me. 14th in the last two events, thats great for me considering my limitations at speed. Jerry M has been shooting the 1-6 in open class and he got an overall win at BRM3G nudging out Daniel for HOA in combined classes. Vortex now has the MGM Switchview leavers in stock for your Razor 1-6. so you can get one from the Vortex web site too. Now if Vortex would just make a front sight for my handgun. Edited October 26, 2012 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyD Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 "That is pretty...shh*^t." - words muttered by me when I first saw this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss+P Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 i got mine last night. got it sighted in today. man is it clear. i mounted it on a larue 1.5 b/c i had it. if i had seen one before i bought my mount i would have bought the offset larue. you can be far away from the glass. i have it mounted as far forward as it will go on my rails and my scope rings. the glass is clear and the dials are huge. i thought it was a little heavy, but man is it nice and i can get used to the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CmbtEngr Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'm interested in this scope, but wrestling with the BDC reticle - would prefer a straight MOA type "ladder". Manual says "...0-3 inch of your aiming point..." with a 200yd zero and 55-77gr bullet traveling at 2700-3000 fps. Here's the way the reticle lines up for my rifle (18" Noveske) and several bullet types (my actual chrono data and using JBM ballistics calculator): Green is good-to-go. Yellow is within .5in of the "3 in" range. Red means the hash mark is missing the intented range (3,4,5,600 yds) by the number indicated in parens. So, in my case the 75gr Hornady Match with a 200yd zero is the best fit. I don't have the scope so none of this is range verified. I had expected more rounds to be within the 0-3in range of the hash marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss+P Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'm interested in this scope, but wrestling with the BDC reticle - would prefer a straight MOA type "ladder". Manual says "...0-3 inch of your aiming point..." with a 200yd zero and 55-77gr bullet traveling at 2700-3000 fps. Here's the way the reticle lines up for my rifle (18" Noveske) and several bullet types (my actual chrono data and using JBM ballistics calculator): Green is good-to-go. Yellow is within .5in of the "3 in" range. Red means the hash mark is missing the intented range (3,4,5,600 yds) by the number indicated in parens. So, in my case the 75gr Hornady Match with a 200yd zero is the best fit. I don't have the scope so none of this is range verified. I had expected more rounds to be within the 0-3in range of the hash marks. yeah i was having similar concerns before i bought it. my thinking was if it is straight moa or mills i need to learn what there holds are also. and what are the chances that a md is going to pick what MY holds are for long range shots. i zeroed at 50 yards 1/4 inch high of POA which gives me a 200 yard zero per MY loading data (not tested yet). i am using the istrelok app on my phone for data crunching and. i am 200 zero, 275, 350,425, 512. i am pretty close to being able to hold 12 oclock on everything between 201-275 and so on. when/if they are a little longer say 260 i may want to hold just a bit a higher. i am starting to get used to the reticle for close stuff, now i just need to shoot some longer stuff the test my theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 I need to check my notes, today kinda toasted my brain. But I sight in at 200 with 55 gr bullets and 69 gr = I let the 55 hit just a bit over my 200 center hold and the 69s hit at it , The 77s hit just under the hold point. all that worked out so that my 400y and 500y holds worked . I can get better detail. latter if you want it. the 200 yard Zero is not a rule that can not be broken. slide up and down 1" of the 200 center hold can make your 500 + holds work fine for the marks. my 1-4 scopes hit over my 400y and 500 yard reticle marks = so I use a 6 O'Clock hold on the targets. the new 1-6 hits very close at 400 and 500 yards = I am at 1000 ft el here in San Antonio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 A buddy of mine just picked one of these up and just loves it. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinWolv Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) 69gr running at 2792fps with 200y zero gave me 300y at the first hash line, 387 at the 2nd hash line, and 487 at the 3rd hash line using Strelok on Android. In practice, holding at the 3rd hash line at 500y steel was yielding hit after hit. Checking on paper at 100y showed expected elevation consistency with my table, as did hits the best I could tell at 250y steel. I need to check the chrono numbers again though as I had just plugged in old numbers from last spring in warm weather and haven't checked since. Haven't run the Vortex through a match yet, but from a bit of range time and zero'ing, I'm very much liking this scope. Showed it to a friend this morning and he agreed that on 1X the FOV is huge and the scope is low-profile....just a thin ring around the glass. It was bright and sunny, and the dot was easy to pick up. Edited November 8, 2012 by AustinWolv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CmbtEngr Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Thanks for the "ballistics" feedback. I guess we can make any reticle work as long as there are some reference points, BDC or otherwise. Just need to put in the range time to confirm the holds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv Z Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 What's the consenus on a 100 yd zero on these? I know they recommend 200, but my longest 3 gun match so far has been just over 100. I sighted in my new Razor at 100 and have yet to try it at 200. Any idea where the marks line up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinWolv Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Using the same round that I listed above, Strelok shows 250, 350, and 456 for the 3 hash marks when using 100y zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Why bother with a 100yd zero? With a 200yd zero you will only be a couple inches off at 100 and will get a near 50yd crossover. 200yd zero will actually put every round between 25 and 100yds poa/poi. That is unless your MD had you shooting at poker chips or asprin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperWiFi Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 We will have Scope Levers for these available in a couple weeks, price should be $45 or less. If you'd like to pre-order email me chris@3gunstuff.com $40.00 dollars would be a GREAT price if it weren't plastic. I think I'll drop the extra $15.00 to get an aluminum one I won't have to worry about comming apart during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperWiFi Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 What are these going to be going for when they come out? 1600? 1700? $1,700.00 thats funny No Brother, you can get one with shipping at $1,399. I have had dinners that cost more than that http://www.opticspla...dc-reticle.html I know that Ken Anderson at Nordic will have them very soon = he is on the forum but does not have them on his web page yet = send Ken a note! = same price as Optics planet and Nordic sponsors events and this forum Get the mount from Nordic too = I like the 2" offset http://shop.nordicco...-Optics_c36.htm Jamie Thanks Jamie! I bought mine from Scott at Liberty Optics for $1289.00 - Scott always hook up shoopters and is ALWAYS awesome to deal with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlouie87 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 What are these going to be going for when they come out? 1600? 1700? $1,700.00 thats funny No Brother, you can get one with shipping at $1,399. I have had dinners that cost more than that http://www.opticspla...dc-reticle.html I know that Ken Anderson at Nordic will have them very soon = he is on the forum but does not have them on his web page yet = send Ken a note! = same price as Optics planet and Nordic sponsors events and this forum Get the mount from Nordic too = I like the 2" offset http://shop.nordicco...-Optics_c36.htm Jamie Thanks Jamie! I bought mine from Scott at Liberty Optics for $1289.00 - Scott always hook up shoopters and is ALWAYS awesome to deal with! Good prices. I'm still waiting till maybe after the shot show to see if they come out a with a mil reticle. I already shoot a mil/mil scope so I dont know it going to a 1-6x with moa will confuse me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 What are these going to be going for when they come out? 1600? 1700? $1,700.00 thats funny No Brother, you can get one with shipping at $1,399. I have had dinners that cost more than that http://www.opticspla...dc-reticle.html I know that Ken Anderson at Nordic will have them very soon = he is on the forum but does not have them on his web page yet = send Ken a note! = same price as Optics planet and Nordic sponsors events and this forum Get the mount from Nordic too = I like the 2" offset http://shop.nordicco...-Optics_c36.htm Jamie Thanks Jamie! I bought mine from Scott at Liberty Optics for $1289.00 - Scott always hook up shoopters and is ALWAYS awesome to deal with! Good prices. I'm still waiting till maybe after the shot show to see if they come out a with a mil reticle. I already shoot a mil/mil scope so I dont know it going to a 1-6x with moa will confuse me? I think Its going to be a long wait on a new reticle, As far as going from Mill to Min nothing to be confusing can happen - Its a "Look And Shoot" reticle If you can see /hold on the target at 600 yards your going to have a drop that puts you with in 1 min. If you have ammo that you like for 500 and 600 yards its going to reward you . As all I have to do to hold to the side of the target for wind. As a example. I had a zero with 75 gr bullets at 2750 , I switched back to my favorite load of 69 gr bullets that Old crono results put them at 2800+ with out rechecking zero or crono shooting on of my other gun from my spot at 500+ yards juts to check the new lot of amoe for group I got my JP with 1-6 on it and shot at a clean target at 510 yards. I wanted to see what kind of group I could get switching guns from my custom 700 with a Jewel trigger and the 5-20 Razor and the bipod and bags to grabbing my JP with 1-6 Razor and just a front sand bag. Well I got one of my best groups 4" but it was 9" low on the 510 yard target with a five shot group. That was only a 1" larger than my group with the 700 and full rest. This new 1-6 is ether making me Very Lucky or very good, buy my previous standards. The more the VORTEX FEVER I get the hotter I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Jerry M has been shooting the 1-6 in open class and he got an overall win at BRM3G nudging out Daniel for HOA in combined classes. Pro's frequently shoot what they are payed to shoot and Jerry could win just as easily with a BSA, so I don't put any stock in what the pro's use. That said, I have been lusting after a z6i for a long time but it is just too expensive. This Vortex is at the level of pain that I can deal with, but my only reservation is that the reticle looks too fine. Hopefully I won't get an opportunity to look through one and blow a wad of cash.money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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