shootingchef Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Well, maybe and maybe not. Consider this: is there a rule that dictates when a competitor may don or remove his equipment belt? Here's a scenario that I could easily see happening: first stage of a match, and the stage is as Ken describes; start on a bed or in a chair, gun on a table, all ammo/magazines on the table. Competitor has not geared up, and doesn't see a need to, since his gun and ammo all come from the table. He walks up with his shooting bag, and at "Make Ready", prepares his gun and ammo per the WSB, and assumes the start position, no equipment belt on. What rule would you cite that says he has to don one? Even if it wasn't the first stage, I don't see a rule prohibiting taking the belt off between stages, so a savvy competitor might just take it off. The only rules I can see state that when you wear your belt, it has to be worn at waist level, securely affixed, can't move the equipment around on it, etc. I don't see one that says you must put your belt on at all, at least not until you need it, obviously. See 5.2.1--it doesn't require a belt to be worn, or a holster used, it simply states how you have to carry a gun when you aren't shooting a stage. Hence, my response to Ken: you can take the belt off at any time--that's obviously not prohibited by rule, or you couldn't take it off to go to the bathroom, have lunch, take a break, whatever. It's universally accepted that you can't move your equipment around on your belt, and in fact is spelled out by rule, 5.2.5.3, which, to my reading would allow a stage briefing to state that you couldn't wear a belt at all. This rule applies to the position of holsters and mag holders and bags, on the belt. Those stay the same, on the belt, whether it's off you or on you. It can't mean you have to wear a belt, because, obviously, you don't--you can take it off any time during a match. OK let me get this straight. Shooter 1 starts on stage X and because he has not "geared up" he can shoot with no belt and holster on. He can then put his belt and holster on for all other stages. Now shooter 2 started one stage over and did gear up. He request to take his belt and holster off, to shoot in the same condition that shooter 1 did, do you tell him yes or no? I always thought part of my job was to make sure all competitors started the course in as close to the same way as possible. When the buzzer goes off, then they are on their own, but the start has to be consistant from shooter to shooter. Gary Whether a shooter is wearing his belt or not on a stage that does not require it is entirely up to the shooter. I don't see that making a shooter wear a belt is necessary on a stage that does not require it. Which all of this should be covered in the WSB. No question when the WSB says "loaded and holstered." In section 8 of the rule book, nothing is said about gun even being holstered, that word is not used. Only the gun's ready condition. so as it's written, there is no penalty or procedural for not having your belt on for a stage that does not require it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Me: Rule 5.2.3 says "the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level". When it's in your range bag, the belt is not being "worn at waist level". Go and get properly dressed - in the meantime, I am putting you to the bottom of the shooting order. Have a nice day. Anonymous smart-ass guy: My holster isn't carried on a belt. It's zip-tied to my jeans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 You're gonna have a tough time complying with the loaded and holstered starts on the other stages, if you aren't wearing a belt. If it started off your body on the first stage, sorry, you don't get to put it on on Stage 2..... :devil: That would be changing its position.... Are you saying the belt can never come off once the match has started? Nope. I'm saying it needs to be in place consistently on every stage between Make Ready and Range is Clear..... I've been through a few RO seminars over the years, and have shot a few stages from a bed, chair, weird start with guns and ammo placed on the stage -- pretty sure I don't have that wrong..... Meaning after RIC, the shooter can take it off until the next time s/he is ready to shoot? The belt and holster would be consistent on each stage independent of other stages. Pretty much. So far we're not bringing micrometers to the range, and measuring/recording each shooter's gear...... Locally we've had shooters leave ranges to pick up pizza from a nearby place. They take their gear off to do that, and put it back on when they return. They make a reasonable effort to see that the gear is returned to the same position. Mag pouches may shift during a match -- I know I've asked production shooters to adjust their mag pouch placement before starting them on a stage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm not seeing the clarity each side is positioning. The gear to be used during a course must be in the same place, but if we aren't using gear on our belts during a stage, I'm seeing Troy's point where there is no requirement that I have equipment on my belt. It's not clear in the rules, but on a course where I don't have a draw or I don't have to reload from, and I really need to remove my belt (ie., as in my chair with arms post), I'm going to lobby the RM that I be able to remove it. Best to 5.2.3 -- cited by other folks. 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. If I'm the RM I'll approve your request to remove your belt, if that's written in the WSB. If not, I'll expect you to wear it. It's not hard..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I know if I'm ever working a stage like this, I'll be sure and have a discussion with the RM before the start of the match. Even if I disagree with his opinion, it's best to be on the same page before the shooters arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Pretty much. So far we're not bringing micrometers to the range, and measuring/recording each shooter's gear...... Locally we've had shooters leave ranges to pick up pizza from a nearby place. They take their gear off to do that, and put it back on when they return. They make a reasonable effort to see that the gear is returned to the same position. Mag pouches may shift during a match -- I know I've asked production shooters to adjust their mag pouch placement before starting them on a stage.... O.k., cause when I first read what you wrote, I thought you were disagreeing with what Troy wrote. I agree that returning the outer belt to the same exact spot everytime is virtually impossible. Getting it pretty darn close is about the best anyone can hope for. Edited August 9, 2012 by remoandiris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Pretty much. So far we're not bringing micrometers to the range, and measuring/recording each shooter's gear...... Locally we've had shooters leave ranges to pick up pizza from a nearby place. They take their gear off to do that, and put it back on when they return. They make a reasonable effort to see that the gear is returned to the same position. Mag pouches may shift during a match -- I know I've asked production shooters to adjust their mag pouch placement before starting them on a stage.... O.k., cause when I first read what you wrote, I thought you were disagreeing with what Troy wrote. I agree that returning the outer belt to the same exact spot everytime is virtually impossible. Getting it pretty darn close is about the best anyone can hope for. I only disagree with Troy's assertion that competitors are free to shoot a stage without their belt on, if they wish..... I think that's covered by 5.2.3..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 It's universally accepted that you can't move your equipment around on your belt, and in fact is spelled out by rule, 5.2.5.3, which, to my reading would allow a stage briefing to state that you couldn't wear a belt at all. This rule applies to the position of holsters and mag holders and bags, on the belt. Those stay the same, on the belt, whether it's off you or on you. It can't mean you have to wear a belt, because, obviously, you don't--you can take it off any time during a match. Lets get that stage briefing stuff out of the conversation...as it really has zero relevance to what we are talking about. Clearly we are talking about a guy that wants to pull his gear off so that it is out of the way for a start (such as lying on a bench...as I gave example of in my video) What we are looking at is: 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. ... If you have your holster and mag pouches on for one stage, you would be in violation of the above rule if you added/subtracted gear...or relocated the gear. I don't see how somebody can take their gear off...or put gear on...and think it hasn't "moved or changed" ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 It's universally accepted that you can't move your equipment around on your belt, and in fact is spelled out by rule, 5.2.5.3, which, to my reading would allow a stage briefing to state that you couldn't wear a belt at all. This rule applies to the position of holsters and mag holders and bags, on the belt. Those stay the same, on the belt, whether it's off you or on you. It can't mean you have to wear a belt, because, obviously, you don't--you can take it off any time during a match. Lets get that stage briefing stuff out of the conversation...as it really has zero relevance to what we are talking about. Clearly we are talking about a guy that wants to pull his gear off so that it is out of the way for a start (such as lying on a bench...as I gave example of in my video) What we are looking at is: 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. ... If you have your holster and mag pouches on for one stage, you would be in violation of the above rule if you added/subtracted gear...or relocated the gear. I don't see how somebody can take their gear off...or put gear on...and think it hasn't "moved or changed" ??? But your allowed to take the belt off for lunch or a potty break? Your logic says you MUST keep the belt on for the entire match. We all take our belts off for one reason or another. If you need to tighten a screw on a mag pouch or holster, you remove the belt to do so, what happens then? What is the proscribed penalty for taking the belt off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 You can take your belt off at any time except when shooting a stage, unless otherwise specified in the WSB (5.2.3 is clear on this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 But your allowed to take the belt off for lunch or a potty break? Your logic says you MUST keep the belt on for the entire match. We all take our belts off for one reason or another. You make a good point. I was going to address that, but hoped it wasn't needed. If we want to be completely anal about it, it does say for the match. Regardless...you don't get to customize your gear from stage to stage. Now, your logic is that you can remove your gear to take a dump, so that carries over to then being allowed to remove your gear for the stage. Do we need a clarification on this or a rule re-write? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfchorn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Do we need a clarification on this or a rule re-write? I really can't believe I'm going to say this, but when two Area Directors (one of whom is a RMI) can't agree, perhaps it needs to be addressed. I am pretty solidly in Kyle's camp, but I shut up and listen when Troy speaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 We don't need a rewrite or a clarification, 5.2.3 states that the rule applies during the WSB which is only in force while you are shooting the stage. Everything from 'Make Ready' to 'Range is Clear' requires the shooter to wear the holster at waist level, unless the WSB states otherwise... It cannot be any clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Do we need a clarification on this or a rule re-write? I really can't believe I'm going to say this, but when two Area Directors (one of whom is a RMI) can't agree, perhaps it needs to be addressed. I am pretty solidly in Kyle's camp, but I shut up and listen when Troy speaks. Maybe on of the BOD can get a hold of John Amidon and get a clarification then..! I will bet money that the correct interpretation is what I have stated several times in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Riddle me this... Why even have this rule if it isn't to ensure the shooter's gear stays in the same place on each and every stage? I'd be open to hearing discussions on getting rid of the rule, but I think it's purpose is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 WOW. I love to discuss, debate, argue etc over rules more than the average guy but this is nonsense to me. The rule, for once, is pretty clear on this one. You have to have your gear on while shooting. if it is illegal to stick a magnet on your belt just to shoot a table start stage then it certainly is not legal to remove your rig so your big butt can lay on a table or sit in a chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 I eagerly await a ruling from the powers that be. Let your AD s or rules committee know your reasons and reasoning. the rule is being interpreted Differently and that should be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Just to add to the confusion: Instead of taking stuff on or off a belt between stages, can you bring more than one belt with you to a match? So nothing gets added or removed on a particular belt, but you are swapping between 2 (or more) belts. So for those bed/chair/narrow door stages one belt, and for the field course "I need to be armed like Rambo" another belt. Personally, I think this flies in the face of the "intent" of the rule to keep people from customizing gear from stage to stage. Unfortunately, it seems to satisfy the strict wording of "the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed" since the position of the gear on that particular belt never changes. The shooter just happened to be changing belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Just to add to the confusion: Instead of taking stuff on or off a belt between stages, can you bring more than one belt with you to a match? So nothing gets added or removed on a particular belt, but you are swapping between 2 (or more) belts. So for those bed/chair/narrow door stages one belt, and for the field course "I need to be armed like Rambo" another belt. Personally, I think this flies in the face of the "intent" of the rule to keep people from customizing gear from stage to stage. Unfortunately, it seems to satisfy the strict wording of "the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed" since the position of the gear on that particular belt never changes. The shooter just happened to be changing belts. The main rule doesn't actually say "belt", fwiw. (even though many keep mentioning it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Just to add to the confusion: Instead of taking stuff on or off a belt between stages, can you bring more than one belt with you to a match? So nothing gets added or removed on a particular belt, but you are swapping between 2 (or more) belts. So for those bed/chair/narrow door stages one belt, and for the field course "I need to be armed like Rambo" another belt. Personally, I think this flies in the face of the "intent" of the rule to keep people from customizing gear from stage to stage. Unfortunately, it seems to satisfy the strict wording of "the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed" since the position of the gear on that particular belt never changes. The shooter just happened to be changing belts. The main rule doesn't actually say "belt", fwiw. (even though many keep mentioning it) Rule 5.2.5.3 is a subsection of 5.2.5 which mentions belt 3 times: 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner: — perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 As an aside about reconfiguring gear during a match, I refer you to an old thread where even Amidon's opinion is that it's okay to reconfigure... after you get bumped to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Whats the ruling if the holster & belt fall off the shooter during the course of fire? I think we have all seen this. By this time just the spare mags are on the belt, but the belt is on the ground. Shooter grabs spare mags and reloads. Do Single Stack & Production get bumped to Open? Then Open shooters to ? If this has been covered in another thread....I apologize. I just want to be able to make the right call when R/O'ing. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Whats the ruling if the holster & belt fall off the shooter during the course of fire? I think we have all seen this. I've never seen that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Whats the ruling if the holster & belt fall off the shooter during the course of fire? I think we have all seen this. I've never seen that happen. Neither have I. (Damn, this one's gotten a lot of mileage!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Riddle me this... Why even have this rule if it isn't to ensure the shooter's gear stays in the same place on each and every stage? I'd be open to hearing discussions on getting rid of the rule, but I think it's purpose is clear. I reread this. I agree with you on the rules and their application. I think that the intent is getting into the discussion but hasn't been put out there yet. The purpose of the belt, holster and pouches is to hold magazines and gun. The purpose of the rule is to assure the location of these pieces of equipment that you actually engage don't move to adjust your draw and mag grab as a stage may dictate - possibly to retain some practicality. I think people are saying if I don't need to use the belt for that purpose, the rule doesn't apply as the equipment (gun and mags) aren't required to be on those locations on the belt for that stage by the wsb. I reread 5.2.3 and it points out the Belt carrying the holster and other allied equipment (which includes holster, mags and respective mag pouches) must be worn at waist level. So unless the wsb states that " a competitor may remove their belt if so desired" it looks like it should be there, regardless if gun and mags are in it or not. The important part is the inclusion of holster and allied equipment in the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now