shootingchef Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 Again, like was pointed out above, where are you going to put your gun after you are done shooting? Going to bag it and then go to a safe area, put your belt back on and gun up for the next COF I love range lawyers.... If necessary yes. Done it before, did not cause any disruption in the stage or match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 My point is that there is nothing in the rule book that says you have to wear a holster for a stage if it's not needed. Unless otherwise specified in the WSB. I just want people to be aware of this so that there is less confusion on the range. I don't like it when an RO or RM makes up their own rules. I don't agree with your conclusions. I am not sure how Troy gets there either. I am well aware, and generally agree, with his views on "personal equipment"...but, the holster and the mag pouches are specifically called out in the rules that have been quoted in this thread. You may not agree with the conclusions that others have, but that is a long way from people "making up their own rules"...especially when folks here are quoting rules, and you are quoting half an email conversation from one RMI. Troy is one of my favorite match officials. Mostly because he is quick to consider the point of view from various angles, and make a correction to his position if he sees fit. He knows where this forum is. And, he is most welcome to post his words here, directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) If WSB/rules are always cogent, clear, concise and, people have the ability to objectively interpret them -- not infer -- then reasonable Range Lawyers wouldn't exist. Unfortunately, collectively speaking, people's ability to write and comprehend is less than ideal. Edited August 7, 2012 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I've taken it off to shoot a seated start stage at a local and then later considered whether it was legal. I didn't have a choice other than to protest the stage as there was arms on the chair (office style) and there is no way I was getting into let alone get out of the chair with my holsters and mag pouches attached to me ( and chair was staked). Interested in hearing more on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I guess Troy and I are going to part ways on this one. I have never seen a shooter be permitted to remove their belt/holster rig durng a match. It has always had to stay in the same basic position as when you shot your first stage. Of course we are not dealing in fractions of an inch after visiting the porta potty or lunch, but still in the same location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Well, maybe and maybe not. Consider this: is there a rule that dictates when a competitor may don or remove his equipment belt? Here's a scenario that I could easily see happening: first stage of a match, and the stage is as Ken describes; start on a bed or in a chair, gun on a table, all ammo/magazines on the table. Competitor has not geared up, and doesn't see a need to, since his gun and ammo all come from the table. He walks up with his shooting bag, and at "Make Ready", prepares his gun and ammo per the WSB, and assumes the start position, no equipment belt on. What rule would you cite that says he has to don one? Even if it wasn't the first stage, I don't see a rule prohibiting taking the belt off between stages, so a savvy competitor might just take it off. The only rules I can see state that when you wear your belt, it has to be worn at waist level, securely affixed, can't move the equipment around on it, etc. I don't see one that says you must put your belt on at all, at least not until you need it, obviously. See 5.2.1--it doesn't require a belt to be worn, or a holster used, it simply states how you have to carry a gun when you aren't shooting a stage. Hence, my response to Ken: you can take the belt off at any time--that's obviously not prohibited by rule, or you couldn't take it off to go to the bathroom, have lunch, take a break, whatever. It's universally accepted that you can't move your equipment around on your belt, and in fact is spelled out by rule, 5.2.5.3, which, to my reading would allow a stage briefing to state that you couldn't wear a belt at all. This rule applies to the position of holsters and mag holders and bags, on the belt. Those stay the same, on the belt, whether it's off you or on you. It can't mean you have to wear a belt, because, obviously, you don't--you can take it off any time during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I don't think the rule prohibits removing the holster during a match but it does prohibit the action on a stage. "5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, " This indicates to me that what follows is only applicable during a stage as the WSB only applies to shooting the stage. "the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level." This part tells us where the holster is allowed to be during the stage as delimited by the first phrase. The holster etc. must be worn and it must be worn at waist level. It seems perfectly clear to me, but maybe I'm just reading it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Why won't you start the shooter? Where does it say a shooter has to have a belt on to run a stage? I've been allowed to take belts off before. I've heard first hand that shooters at nationals have been allowed to remove belts. I'll ask you nicely to replace your belt in the same configuration that it was in on any prior stages. If you decline to follow the reasonable direction of a range officer -- given that 5.2.5.3 exists, I think the direction is reasonable -- my next move is to call the RM. I won't like informing him of a 10.6.1 DQ, but if you remove all other options, that'll be my only choice..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Shot a stage similar to the OP recently. Since was shooting prone WITH belt on we were informed to unload an show clear, hammer down, ground gun on table, get out of prone position, holster gun. Technically those are not range commands and should not have been used. I see the point in using them (for safety reasons) but they are still not allowed. They're safety warnings -- hence allowed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 My point is that there is nothing in the rule book that says you have to wear a holster for a stage if it's not needed. Unless otherwise specified in the WSB. I just want people to be aware of this so that there is less confusion on the range. I don't like it when an RO or RM makes up their own rules. How about: 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. If you take your holster or belt off it is no longer at waist level and you therefore cannot start the stage. again only IF you are wearing the belt does it have to be at waist level. Nothing says you required to wear the belt. You're gonna have a tough time complying with the loaded and holstered starts on the other stages, if you aren't wearing a belt. If it started off your body on the first stage, sorry, you don't get to put it on on Stage 2..... :devil: That would be changing its position.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Like already posted above, the USPSA pistol rules require the equipment to be in the same place from start to end. That is why USPSA included a specific rule in multigun to ALLOW movement of the equipment: MG 5.2.5.3: Due to the varied equipment requirements in a multi-gun match, belts, holsters, belt-mounted magazine holders and speed-loading devices and any other equipment worn or carried by the shooter may be changed, repositioned or reconfigured between stages, provided that such reconfiguration is compliant with MG-5.1.7, and all equipment is in a rules-compliant configuration prior to the start of the shooter’s attempt on the Course of Fire. Similar to how they put in other deviations from the pistol rules (example: knocking over a plate with a hit on the base that the plate is sitting on is a REF in pistol and a scoring hit in MG). For all of the posts about the bathroom and all, really? Even IPSC with their equipment card does not go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 This issue is simple and straight-forward. As long as all my equipment and their configuration thereof are USPSA rule-compliant for my division, and assuming the WSB of a given stage is adequately written, then I can take my belt off as many times as I want when appropriate. For Production or Single Stack shooters who have mags/pouches around our back, a starting-position of lying on a bed is not exactly shooter-friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 You're gonna have a tough time complying with the loaded and holstered starts on the other stages, if you aren't wearing a belt. If it started off your body on the first stage, sorry, you don't get to put it on on Stage 2..... :devil: That would be changing its position.... Are you saying the belt can never come off once the match has started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If we take "the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. " to only mean "the position on the belt" and not "the position on the belt relitive to the positon of the body" I can see you saying you could show up to a stage without your gear and with your gun in a bag. Taking that argument a little farther: If this is true on a table start you could have open and limited shooters rotating their holster to the back so all their mags were up front and showing up to the stage with their gun in a bag? edit after re-reading a post I did not read correclty. Edited August 8, 2012 by ktm300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 This issue is simple and straight-forward. If that was the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 More thoughts on the idea that you can show up without your belt and holster to a stage: How do you comply with 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. How do you holster you gun if you are not wearing your holster? In most cases the word "must" in a gun handling situation means that if you don't do it you are a DQ. I don't think this is more out of line than reading into a rule that the position of the equipment is not related to the shooter but just the belt itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 This issue is simple and straight-forward. As long as all my equipment and their configuration thereof are USPSA rule-compliant for my division, and assuming the WSB of a given stage is adequately written, then I can take my belt off as many times as I want when appropriate. Are we reading the same rule(s)? Why would we even have any of these rules? What is the purpose? (No...I'm not saying to read into them. Just try to understand them.) If we have rules that say you can't move your gear around, the point there is that you can't custom configure the gear from stage to stage (like we have specifically allowed in multi-gun). What is a shooter trying to do by not wearing a belt? They are trying to custom configure their gear for a particular stage, right? My read on the rule(s)is they clear, and the logic behind them is sound as well. And, believe me, I realize it is a pain in the back: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) Flex...I'm just saying I agree with Troy's interpretation. And, also trying to re-enforce the subject of adequately written WSB. Edited August 8, 2012 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Flex...I'm just saying I agree with Troy's interpretation. And, also trying to re-enforce the subject of adequately written WSB. I can't really see where the WSB gives your position any leverage. The way it reads is that having the gear off would have to be written specifically into the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 You're gonna have a tough time complying with the loaded and holstered starts on the other stages, if you aren't wearing a belt. If it started off your body on the first stage, sorry, you don't get to put it on on Stage 2..... :devil: That would be changing its position.... Are you saying the belt can never come off once the match has started? Nope. I'm saying it needs to be in place consistently on every stage between Make Ready and Range is Clear..... I've been through a few RO seminars over the years, and have shot a few stages from a bed, chair, weird start with guns and ammo placed on the stage -- pretty sure I don't have that wrong..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 You're gonna have a tough time complying with the loaded and holstered starts on the other stages, if you aren't wearing a belt. If it started off your body on the first stage, sorry, you don't get to put it on on Stage 2..... :devil: That would be changing its position.... Are you saying the belt can never come off once the match has started? Nope. I'm saying it needs to be in place consistently on every stage between Make Ready and Range is Clear..... I've been through a few RO seminars over the years, and have shot a few stages from a bed, chair, weird start with guns and ammo placed on the stage -- pretty sure I don't have that wrong..... Meaning after RIC, the shooter can take it off until the next time s/he is ready to shoot? The belt and holster would be consistent on each stage independent of other stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I'm not seeing the clarity each side is positioning. The gear to be used during a course must be in the same place, but if we aren't using gear on our belts during a stage, I'm seeing Troy's point where there is no requirement that I have equipment on my belt. It's not clear in the rules, but on a course where I don't have a draw or I don't have to reload from, and I really need to remove my belt (ie., as in my chair with arms post), I'm going to lobby the RM that I be able to remove it. This is starting to sound like the having a production mag in my pocket that I don't use discussion... And for the argument that you must HOLSTER a gun at the end of the COF - 5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). Because cases bags and holsters are acceptable Carry and Storage - it's acceptable to bag the gun at the end of a COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Well, maybe and maybe not. Consider this: is there a rule that dictates when a competitor may don or remove his equipment belt? Here's a scenario that I could easily see happening: first stage of a match, and the stage is as Ken describes; start on a bed or in a chair, gun on a table, all ammo/magazines on the table. Competitor has not geared up, and doesn't see a need to, since his gun and ammo all come from the table. He walks up with his shooting bag, and at "Make Ready", prepares his gun and ammo per the WSB, and assumes the start position, no equipment belt on. What rule would you cite that says he has to don one? Even if it wasn't the first stage, I don't see a rule prohibiting taking the belt off between stages, so a savvy competitor might just take it off. The only rules I can see state that when you wear your belt, it has to be worn at waist level, securely affixed, can't move the equipment around on it, etc. I don't see one that says you must put your belt on at all, at least not until you need it, obviously. See 5.2.1--it doesn't require a belt to be worn, or a holster used, it simply states how you have to carry a gun when you aren't shooting a stage. Hence, my response to Ken: you can take the belt off at any time--that's obviously not prohibited by rule, or you couldn't take it off to go to the bathroom, have lunch, take a break, whatever. It's universally accepted that you can't move your equipment around on your belt, and in fact is spelled out by rule, 5.2.5.3, which, to my reading would allow a stage briefing to state that you couldn't wear a belt at all. This rule applies to the position of holsters and mag holders and bags, on the belt. Those stay the same, on the belt, whether it's off you or on you. It can't mean you have to wear a belt, because, obviously, you don't--you can take it off any time during a match. OK let me get this straight. Shooter 1 starts on stage X and because he has not "geared up" he can shoot with no belt and holster on. He can then put his belt and holster on for all other stages. Now shooter 2 started one stage over and did gear up. He request to take his belt and holster off, to shoot in the same condition that shooter 1 did, do you tell him yes or no? I always thought part of my job was to make sure all competitors started the course in as close to the same way as possible. When the buzzer goes off, then they are on their own, but the start has to be consistant from shooter to shooter. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) "must be worn at waist level" What part of 'must be worn' is causing the confusion here? at the start if the stage, up to and including 'range is clear' the holster must be worn at waist level. This period of time is covered by the WSB whic is what it clearly states in the rule. I'm sorry but any other definition simply makes no sense. A long time ago competitors could remove holsters etc. for some courses of fire but it caused delays in matches. I think this is where the rule originated, it was intended to ensure that during a stage the competitor had to wear the holster etc. which is what 5.2.3 states. Edited August 8, 2012 by BritinUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) If I am holding the clock I would not start the shooter unless they are wearing their belt and all accessories (holster, mag pouches etc.) in their proper locations. Like others have mentioned, I would cite rule 5.2.3: 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The conversation... Competitor: I don't want to wear my belt on this stage. Me: Do you have a belt. Competitor: Sure, it's in my range bag. Me: Rule 5.2.3 says "the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level". When it's in your range bag, the belt is not being "worn at waist level". Go and get properly dressed - in the meantime, I am putting you to the bottom of the shooting order. Have a nice day. Edited August 8, 2012 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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