Production/SS magazine rule update

[DWFAN]

Looks like they fixed something with the release of minutes.

Handgun rule update – USPSA

- Single Stack/Production restrictions to pocket mags/revision to 5.2.4

and division appendix.

Motion: New rule amended language 5.2.4 – makes this official

Moved: A4 Seconded: A2 Passed

Language of 5.2.4:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage

procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in

retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that

purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve

and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the

provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or

speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point,

will be allowed, providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

[38SuperDub]

This is a great thing - I'm liking the new BOD minutes - they have some good stuff in it!!!!

[motosapiens]

well that sucks. That makes perfect sense and is easy to interpret. What are we supposed to argue about now?

[DWFAN]

well that sucks. That makes perfect sense and is easy to interpret. What are we supposed to argue about now?

Paint inside magwells ?

[diehli]

That was effective as of July 8. Check the NROI updates.

On the rule itself, I commend the BOD for putting into the rule what makes sense.

[Skydiver]

Looks like they fixed something with the release of minutes.

Handgun rule update – USPSA

- Single Stack/Production restrictions to pocket mags/revision to 5.2.4

and division appendix.

Motion: New rule amended language 5.2.4 – makes this official

Moved: A4 Seconded: A2 Passed

Language of 5.2.4:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage

procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in

retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that

purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve

and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the

provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or

speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point,

will be allowed, providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

Does this override the NROI ruling? Or does the ruling also still stand and is supposed to be in conjunction with the amended rule above?

Basically, until you hear "Range is Clear" it is still "after the start signal". A shooter who unloads and sticks the mag into a front shirt pocket has "used" that magazine.

I know semantics. The intent of the amended text is to talk about mags coming out said pockets, not going in. Unfortunately, the intent didn't quite make it across. I feel that the NROI ruling should stick around longer until the text in the rulebook gets improved even more.

[pskys2]

Looks like they fixed something with the release of minutes.

Handgun rule update – USPSA

- Single Stack/Production restrictions to pocket mags/revision to 5.2.4

and division appendix.

Motion: New rule amended language 5.2.4 – makes this official

Moved: A4 Seconded: A2 Passed

Language of 5.2.4:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage

procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in

retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that

purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve

and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the

provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or

speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point,

will be allowed, providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

Does this override the NROI ruling? Or does the ruling also still stand and is supposed to be in conjunction with the amended rule above?

Basically, until you hear "Range is Clear" it is still "after the start signal". A shooter who unloads and sticks the mag into a front shirt pocket has "used" that magazine.

I know semantics. The intent of the amended text is to talk about mags coming out said pockets, not going in. Unfortunately, the intent didn't quite make it across. I feel that the NROI ruling should stick around longer until the text in the rulebook gets improved even more.

In that case you used the mag from the original correct position. Once you drop it, or unload it, and store/drop it in a forward position it should be fine. Unless you suddenly see a target and "Pull" it out of your shirt pocket and re-engage the target. Then you used it from a restricted position.

Looks like a new direction in USPSA has started. And I'm impressed.

[ktm300]

Looks like a new direction in USPSA has started. And I'm impressed.

I agree, this looks to be a common sense answer to situation that came up from time to time and caused people to get bumped to Open even though there was no advantage gained. If this is the way the board is going to clear things up, I like it.

I think we can still find plenty of stuff to argue about.

[diehli]

Skydiver, I read the 2 NROI rulings as dealing with different parts of the COF. A reasonable reader should.

[Skydiver]

Looks like a new direction in USPSA has started. And I'm impressed.

Yes, I'm impressed as well!!! I hope this continues and makes our organization grow.

Does this override the NROI ruling? Or does the ruling also still stand and is supposed to be in conjunction with the amended rule above?

Basically, until you hear "Range is Clear" it is still "after the start signal". A shooter who unloads and sticks the mag into a front shirt pocket has "used" that magazine.

I know semantics. The intent of the amended text is to talk about mags coming out said pockets, not going in. Unfortunately, the intent didn't quite make it across. I feel that the NROI ruling should stick around longer until the text in the rulebook gets improved even more.

In that case you used the mag from the original correct position. Once you drop it, or unload it, and store/drop it in a forward position it should be fine. Unless you suddenly see a target and "Pull" it out of your shirt pocket and re-engage the target. Then you used it from a restricted position.

So is the shot fired the qualifying event for a magazine to be considered "used"?

Scenario 1:

Unloaded gun start. All magazines on table. At start signal engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each.

Single Stack Shooter loads the gun with one magazine, and puts another magazine in a front shirt pocket, just in case. No bump to open, he has not "used" the spare magazine.

Shooter fires 7 shots, has a jam and drops the magazine. He inserts the spare magazine, and racks the slide to chamber a round from the magazine. As he comes up to the target, he decides not to take the shot. He just unloads and shows clear putting the magazine back into his front pocket.

Bump to open because he actually inserted the magazine? Bump to open because he loaded a bullet from the magazine into the chamber? Or no problem because didn't fire a shot?

Scenario 2:

Unloaded gun start. All magazines on table. At start signal engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each. T4 is activate by pressure pad A.

Production shooter loads the gun with one magazine, and puts another magazine in a front shirt pocket. After shooting T1-T3, he pulls the magazine out of his pocket and throws it at the pressure pad to activate T4, while he runs to a more advantageous shooting position.<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Bump to open because he used the magazine to activate the pressure pad? Or no problem because he didn't insert the magazine into his gun?

Scenario 3:

A production shooter still has the magazine disconnect enable on his gun. At unload and show clear, they tell the RO that the gun has a mag disconnect, then they pull a magazine out of a front pocket, insert it, and they use it to be able to pull the trigger.

Bump to open because they used the magazine to get the hammer down? Or no problem because they didn't fire a shot?

For scenario 1, I think that inserting the magazine, irregardless whether a round was racked into the slide or not, or a shot was fired or not, will cause a bump to open. I will admit, though, that this is not consistent with foot fault and strong/weak hand support penalties only applying for shots fired - between shots fired, the shooter can step wherever they wish and support all they want.

For scenario 2, I think that using the magazine to activate the pressure pad constitutes using that magazine even if it was never inserted into the gun, nor were bullets used out of that magazine.

For scenario 3, I sure do hope that the NROI ruling sticks around. If all I have is the text of the new rule, I'd grudgingly have to bump the shooter to Open because they did pull a magazine from an incorrect location and used it after the start signal to allow the gun to function. Sucks.

[Skydiver]

Skydiver, I read the 2 NROI rulings as dealing with different parts of the COF. A reasonable reader should.

I agree. As long as both rulings exist then things work quite well. This is why I was asking if the BoD revised rule will supersede the older ruling. If the older ruling goes away because people believe that the revised rule covers everything, then there will be the issues that I pointed out where the revised rule does not cover unloading.

[CZinSC]

I'm glad everyone else thinks this is a good thing. I'll start the posts saying I don't think it is. I did't think there was a problem with the rule before. I shoot production, I had no problem understanding the rules as they were written. If a new shooter didn't read the rules and was bumped to Open because he didn't understand, tough sh*t. Read the rules of the game before you play it next time.

As Skydiver has already pointed out, this ruling opens up a lot of cans of worms for RO's to deal with because people are not automatically bumped to open with the mag in the front pocket.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I respect what everyone has said so far, but I disagree. There are other rules that should be addressed before this one ever was. ( race holsters in production, paint in magwell to name just two ).

[Babaganoosh]

Ill shoot against someone who has to pull a mag out of their front pocket anyday. As far as I am concerned it offers no advantages. If anything it us a disadvantage.

Its good to have the rules clearly outlined however.

[Skydiver]

So if somebody comes up with "apparel" with pockets that holds magazines in the right orientation and up closer to the gun for even faster reloads, no issues at all? Instead of reaching down to the waist for the next mag, the shooter need only reach to chest level. Would you appeal for unsportsmanlike conduct since apparel and use of pockets are allowed, but that is abusing the rule? Is that apparel's pockets now a retention device that is specifically designed to hold magazines, and so therefore should be at waist level?

Personally, I would applaud the ingenuity. It may or may not be faster, but at least somebody is thinking outside the box and it may cause others to rethink the mechanics of a reload. Sometimes these reexaminations come up with improvements in techniques. IF the rules allow for using pockets in front of hipbones, then more power to them. Unfortunately, with the current rules, using a magazine that comes from such a forward pocket will get them bumped to open.

[MGMorden]

I'm glad everyone else thinks this is a good thing. I'll start the posts saying I don't think it is. I did't think there was a problem with the rule before. I shoot production, I had no problem understanding the rules as they were written. If a new shooter didn't read the rules and was bumped to Open because he didn't understand, tough sh*t. Read the rules of the game before you play it next time.

As Skydiver has already pointed out, this ruling opens up a lot of cans of worms for RO's to deal with because people are not automatically bumped to open with the mag in the front pocket.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I respect what everyone has said so far, but I disagree. There are other rules that should be addressed before this one ever was. ( race holsters in production, paint in magwell to name just two ).

I'm also a Production shooter, and have never had this rule bite me as I understood them, but that doesn't mean that the rules are set in stone never to change. So long as the rules are what they are then those who want to not be penalized will obey them. At the same time, its also OK to say that a rule doesn't make sense and try to get it changed. That's how the sport evolves. If we never made new rules then the division that we both enjoy wouldn't even exist as originally there was only Open and Limited. Somebody thought some changes would help the sport, and they did .

[Sarge]

Skydiver, I read the 2 NROI rulings as dealing with different parts of the COF. A reasonable reader should.

I agree. As long as both rulings exist then things work quite well. This is why I was asking if the BoD revised rule will supersede the older ruling. If the older ruling goes away because people believe that the revised rule covers everything, then there will be the issues that I pointed out where the revised rule does not cover unloading.

I agree that both rules cover it. Alone they both leave gaps.

[mactiger]

Looks like they fixed something with the release of minutes.

Handgun rule update – USPSA

- Single Stack/Production restrictions to pocket mags/revision to 5.2.4

and division appendix.

Motion: New rule amended language 5.2.4 – makes this official

Moved: A4 Seconded: A2 Passed

Language of 5.2.4:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage

procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in

retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that

purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve

and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the

provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or

speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point,

will be allowed, providing they are not used in the course of fire after the start signal.

Does this override the NROI ruling? Or does the ruling also still stand and is supposed to be in conjunction with the amended rule above?

Basically, until you hear "Range is Clear" it is still "after the start signal". A shooter who unloads and sticks the mag into a front shirt pocket has "used" that magazine.

I know semantics. The intent of the amended text is to talk about mags coming out said pockets, not going in. Unfortunately, the intent didn't quite make it across. I feel that the NROI ruling should stick around longer until the text in the rulebook gets improved even more.

You are way overthinking this rule.

Troy

[Sin-ster]

You are way overthinking this rule.

Troy

Agreed.

I was just about to post a thank you, to you, for it.

[Skydiver]

Yup, I probably was. (Hence the tag under my avatar.) I was just trying to get a lead into the discussion.

(Remember the discussion a long time ago about the same rule, but with a SS or Production shooter shooting a stage with a magazine in their hands instead of in the pouches? Wasn't that long discussion which lead to another NROI ruling? Were people overthinking the rule at that point as well? If I recall correctly, I was in the camp that believed carrying in the hand was perfectly legal and thought that others were overthinking the rule.)

[rfoil007]

how does that work for a table start.when gun and mag are both in front of you at start.

[Poppa Bear]

how does that work for a table start.when gun and mag are both in front of you at start.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose

Off body does not need to comply with division requirements. Those rules are only for equipment on the belt.

[Poppa Bear]

Yup, I probably was. (Hence the tag under my avatar.) I was just trying to get a lead into the discussion.

(Remember the discussion a long time ago about the same rule, but with a SS or Production shooter shooting a stage with a magazine in their hands instead of in the pouches? Wasn't that long discussion which lead to another NROI ruling? Were people overthinking the rule at that point as well? If I recall correctly, I was in the camp that believed carrying in the hand was perfectly legal and thought that others were overthinking the rule.)

Just to clarify, This was only after the start signal.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby”

command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

[Skydiver]

More overthinking happening here:

If in a normal single stage, single string course of fire, a SS or Production shooter is going along shooting and does a reload with retention (perhaps to keep mags out of the mud), and stashes the used magazine in a front pocket, is this a bump to open? Or is it only a bump to open if he pulls the partially spent magazine back out again and loads it back into his gun when he discovers he needs a few more rounds?

[eric4069]

On the rule itself, I commend the BOD for putting into the rule what makes sense.

+1

eric

[whitedog]

Overthinking is an understatement I believe. Both rules in place pretty much covers it. Personnally I think its good.