Popper Calibration

[Big Guy]

When initially calibrating a popper, should the calibration (or adjustment) take in account for gamed positions (i.e., shooting the popper at an angle rather than straight forward)?

In the same line, if a shooter asks for a calibration (popper didnt fall) after shooting the popper from a longer distance and at an angle other than initially intended, is the calibration shot taken from the same position as the shooter engaged the popper?

Edited July 9, 2012 by Big Guy

[Outsydlooknin75]

My understanding is that a opportune should be calibrated from the closest legal position to shoot it from and all callibration challenges should be from that same spot. Not where it was shot from.

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[Poppa Bear]

APPENDIX C1

5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within the

calibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting location in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated. Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B4.

7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper. (See rule 4.3.1.5 for Poppers partially hidden by cover).The following will apply:

[wgj3]

So for a quick summation:

Calibrate from farthest position inside shooting area.

Challenge/check from where shooter shot.

???

[SLM]

Yep.

[JThompson]

Yep.

[Poppa Bear]

And know when to just let it go. Had an edge hit on a piece yesterday. I heard the ring as I was engaging other targets but realized that it was not going down. To come back to the target I would have added several seconds to my time. I just let it go and then looked at it after the range was clear. I knew if I called for calibration it would go down because my load was a 173 PF that hit the edge, and they were calibrated with a 117 PF load.

[JThompson]

And know when to just let it go. Had an edge hit on a piece yesterday. I heard the ring as I was engaging other targets but realized that it was not going down. To come back to the target I would have added several seconds to my time. I just let it go and then looked at it after the range was clear. I knew if I called for calibration it would go down because my load was a 173 PF that hit the edge, and they were calibrated with a 117 PF load.

Have it shot... If you hit it have it shot, never know.

JT

[Poppa Bear]

And know when to just let it go. Had an edge hit on a piece yesterday. I heard the ring as I was engaging other targets but realized that it was not going down. To come back to the target I would have added several seconds to my time. I just let it go and then looked at it after the range was clear. I knew if I called for calibration it would go down because my load was a 173 PF that hit the edge, and they were calibrated with a 117 PF load.

Have it shot... If you hit it have it shot, never know.

JT

Schutzenmeister was the RM. A red dot Bianchi gun from 25 feet would have been dead center of the scoring zone. Because all steel was painted between shooters it was easy to see that I caught it with about 1/3 of the bullets diameter. If I had more of a hit I might have tried it but I knew it was shooter error on my part.

[Big Guy]

APPENDIX C1

5. For initial calibration, each popper must be set to fall when hit within the

calibration zone with a single shot fired from a designated handgun using the calibration ammunition. The shot must be fired from the shooting location in the course of fire furthest from the popper being calibrated. Calibration zones are indicated in the diagrams in Appendix B4.

I believe there is a difference between calibrating a popper form the furthest distance (straight shot) versus an angled shot from a closer distance.

[Poppa Bear]

Furthest feasable shot. If the stage has a full popper shot at a bit of an angle or a head on head only shot from half the distance. The shot needs to be from the longer range.

That is also why they require from where the shot was taken. Sometimes it will not fall if taken from a different position.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Poppa Bear

[Nik Habicht]

If you think about it from the RM perspective, the RM wants the steel to fall when hit. Initial calibration from the furthest spot ensures that should happen.....

When a piece of steel is later hit, and fails to fall, shooting it from (as close to) the shooter's position, ensures that we (come closest to) duplicate the conditions in which the popper failed...

[Sarge]

And know when to just let it go. Had an edge hit on a piece yesterday. I heard the ring as I was engaging other targets but realized that it was not going down. To come back to the target I would have added several seconds to my time. I just let it go and then looked at it after the range was clear. I knew if I called for calibration it would go down because my load was a 173 PF that hit the edge, and they were calibrated with a 117 PF load.

Have it shot... If you hit it have it shot, never know.

JT

Big +1. Call for calibration ALWAYS. Like JT said, anything could happen, especially something in your favor. i.e.:

APPENDIX C1

The popper and the surrounding area on which it

stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a

Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the

course of fire.

If the popper falls for any non-interference

reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will

apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the popper anywhere

on its frontal surface and the popper does not fall, the calibration test

is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot

the course of fire (The official may jerk the trigger and shoot it in the Ankle)

If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibration zone,

the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered

to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper has been recalibrated.

[Sin-ster]

Schutzenmeister was the RM. A red dot Bianchi gun from 25 feet would have been dead center of the scoring zone. Because all steel was painted between shooters it was easy to see that I caught it with about 1/3 of the bullets diameter. If I had more of a hit I might have tried it but I knew it was shooter error on my part.

Shouldn't he be shooting at the very bottom of the calibration zone?

I'm not near a rulebook to check, but I've heard that several times from guys who have been around a while. And when asked to fire the calibration shot, that's where I always hold/hit.

[remoandiris]

Shouldn't he be shooting at the very bottom of the calibration zone?

I'm not near a rulebook to check, but I've heard that several times from guys who have been around a while. And when asked to fire the calibration shot, that's where I always hold/hit.

Probably a good self-policy. If you hit in or below the calibration zone and the popper falls, there is no reshoot and the popper is recorded as a miss on the scoresheet. If the calibration shot is in the zone or below and the popper does NOT fall, the shooter gets a reshoot.

[kevin c]

Shouldn't he be shooting at the very bottom of the calibration zone?

I'm not near a rulebook to check, but I've heard that several times from guys who have been around a while. And when asked to fire the calibration shot, that's where I always hold/hit.

Probably a good self-policy. If you hit in or below the calibration zone and the popper falls, there is no reshoot and the popper is recorded as a miss on the scoresheet. If the calibration shot is in the zone or below and the popper does NOT fall, the shooter gets a reshoot.

If the popper is calibrated to fall with a hit in the calibration zone, then I think that is where the challenge calibration shot ideally should go, because what is being done is testing the proper calibration of the steel, not giving the shooter the best chance possible of getting a RS because a low hit from the calibration shot didn't take it down. Repeat shots after high or low hits from the calibration gun aren't repeated because the steel is considered too altered from its prio condition (no, we WONT go into the "but isn't it already altered from the competitor's shot?" argument), so a RS is given for what amounts to REF on the test, the exception being falling with a low hit, which is presumed to require greater energy than a hit higher up in the calibration zone.

So aim at the middle. At least, that's what I think...

Edited July 10, 2012 by kevin c

[Sarge]

So aim at the middle. At least, that's what I think...

I agree. I thought that's why it was called the calibration zone.

[sperman]

The rules also state that the RM designate a specific handgun, and the ammo for calibration SHOULD make a PF of 115 to 125. Since none of the matches I shoot follow that requirement, when asked to perform a calibration, I try to aim at the bottom of the calibration zone. I know my ammo is 132 pf, so I feel like aiming at the bottom of the calibration zone is the best thing I can do to compensate for the fact that my ammo is a higher PF than the rulebook recommends for performing a calibration on steel.

[Sarge]

The rules also state that the RM designate a specific handgun, and the ammo for calibration SHOULD make a PF of 115 to 125. Since none of the matches I shoot follow that requirement, when asked to perform a calibration, I try to aim at the bottom of the calibration zone. I know my ammo is 132 pf, so I feel like aiming at the bottom of the calibration zone is the best thing I can do to compensate for the fact that my ammo is a higher PF than the rulebook recommends for performing a calibration on steel.

I would think an awful lot of speculation and just plain guessing is involved with that method. I know it's the best we can probably come up with in a local match but I wonder if there is a more scientific method.

I doubt it since most still argue over which bullet weight imparts more energy onto a popper. Heck I'm not surprised somebody has not tried to argue a calibration result based on a heavier bullet being used.

[Poppa Bear]

This would make an interesting case for the RM.

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to the

provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which

a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot

on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for

any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule

4.6.1). All Poppers shall follow the guidelines below:

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be

available at some point in the COF.

2. That the calibration will be done from a point on the

COF where the calibration zone is available, closest to

where the contested shot was fired.

The closest spot available where the calibration zone was available is at the beginning of the stage. From where I shot it, only the head above the calibration zone was available. The rest was hidden behind steel HC.

Appendix C says:

7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a

calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper

(when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from

where the competitor shot the popper. (See rule 4.3.1.5 for Poppers partially hidden by cover).The following will apply:

a. If the first shot by the calibration officer hits on or below the calibration zone and the popper falls, the popper is deemed to be properly calibrated, and it will be scored as a miss.

b. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the popper anywhere

on its frontal surface and the popper does not fall, the calibration test

is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot

the course of fire, once the popper has been recalibrated.

c. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibration zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper

has been recalibrated.

So if I had requested a calibration he would have had to have taken the shot from 2 1/2 to 3 times the distance I engaged it from because the only area available from where I shot it is an automatic reshoot for hitting above the calibration zone.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Poppa Bear

[Nik Habicht]

Poppa -- not quite. The RM would have the option to sidestep to get a clear shot at the calibration zone from the same distance, or depending on whether or not the hardcover steel could be replaced exactly, could order it to be lowered/removed....

For instance, if the hardcover was a popper that had been set not to fall, it could be lowered....

[Poppa Bear]

Learning something new here. I did not know the RM could move himself or a barrier to get a clear shot at the calibration zone. I was not going to call for a calibration because in my mind I made a bad shot. Even if I had, I would not have had a problem with Mike taking the shot from where I was at. My edge hit rocked it but did not take it down. As one of the RO's I saw plenty of Production 9's take it down from that location both before and after I shot the stage.

Each time something like this happens I put a bit into the back of my mind so that if I run across something similar I know how to deal with it.

[Chills1994]

nevermind....

Edited July 10, 2012 by Chills1994

[Nik Habicht]

Learning something new here. I did not know the RM could move himself or a barrier to get a clear shot at the calibration zone. I was not going to call for a calibration because in my mind I made a bad shot. Even if I had, I would not have had a problem with Mike taking the shot from where I was at. My edge hit rocked it but did not take it down. As one of the RO's I saw plenty of Production 9's take it down from that location both before and after I shot the stage.

Each time something like this happens I put a bit into the back of my mind so that if I run across something similar I know how to deal with it.

You even highlighted the relevant language in Red above:

4.3.1.5.2. That the calibration will be done from a point on the COF where the calibration zone is available, closest to where the contested shot was fired.

Two requirements: That the calibration be available, and that once that requirement is fulfilled, the RM goes to a spot that is as close as possible to the location from which the competitor fired....

Moving things is tricky, very tricky, because you need to be certain that you can put them back the way they were, and care must be taken not to disturb the popper. This also takes time. The side step would be the best idea, when feasible....

[remoandiris]

IMO the most important part of this discussion is knew knew you made a bad shot and accepted the consequences. You didn't game it.

I have no doubt you would have called for a calibration if you made a good shot and the popper failed to fall.