Proposed Multigun rules Posted for comment on uspsa.org

[chendersby]

The proposed USPSA rifle, shotgun and multigun rules are posted at www.uspsa.org. There is a link on the main page.

They are there for member comment and input. Non-uspsa member 3 gunners are also welcome to comment.

Please send your input to me at area2@uspsa.org or post it here.

Edited June 20, 2012 by chendersby

[Bryan 45]

With all due respect, the rules are far too many pages to keep me interested in reading them.

With exception of the heavy metal limited equipment list in the appendix (I did read this part). I think it's a mistake to only allow 1911s in HML, and if USPSA is going to insist on using power factors, 320 is too low when the minimum cartridge required is a .308 win. Even a 16" 308 has no problem making 360pf, and it prevents guys from using powder puff 308win loads at 320pf.

Bryan Ray

ty47672

Edited June 20, 2012 by Bryan 45

[MarkCO]

SNIP ... and if USPSA is going to insist on using power factors...

The choice between PF and Time-Plus is up to the match organizers, there is no insistence on the part of USPSA. I think all the large USPSA MG matches used, or are going to use, Time-plus this year.

Thanks for the work Chris and BOD. You have my comments already.

[outerlimits]

Most of it is re-hashed pistol rules. Coulda been about 15-20 pages, max. Nothin new and exciting here.

[Religious Shooter]

I would like to see attached flashlights be legal in all divisions. If you must have a differentation... the light has to be on the firearm at all times with Limited/Tactical etc. You can't take it off. You start with it and you end with it. A lot of home defense shotguns have a light on them. If a guy wants to shoot with his 870 with a light... let's not put him into Open just because of the light. I don't see any significant advantage if a firearm has a flashlight in an MG match.

To conserve a club's steel you really should also have a minimum bullet weight for Open rifle. Or at least give the option to the match director/range to have a minimum bullet weight.

I didn't see any passages in the rules saying you can unbag/bag a flagged long gun. Maybe I missed it?

[Fenrir]

I agreed with all the comments posted so far. I haven't finished reading the whole set of rules yet but I will send in an e-mail with my view on the rules. I will say I believe that Heavy Tactical should be a .45 caliber pistol, and not a .40 caliber. Heavy Metal Limited should also allow other types of .45 caliber pistols, and not be just 1911 pistols.

Sean L. Powell

USPSA Number A-74533

[Chuck Anderson]

Most of it is re-hashed pistol rules. Coulda been about 15-20 pages, max. Nothin new and exciting here.

I thought the same thing when Chris sent them to me. I was hoping for a nice short rule set. When I actually tried to go in and cut stuff out that I thought wasn't needed...well there really wasn't much there to cut.

How about some constructive criticism? What 30 pages can be removed. Keep in mind this is a rule set that needs to be used for everything from National Championships with a dedicated staff to the small local matches that might not have the veteran 3 gun staff that can pull on past experience or old USPSA rules for rulings and decisions.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Thanks for asking for input!

[Nuke8401]

From a new three gunner's view and inexperienced USPSA shooter, I have only shot club level USPSA 3 gun matches, just need some clarification:

- It looks like it is OK to uncase a long gun at your car as long as it has a chamber flag? Since its OK to handle a long gun other times with a flag.

- Pistol empty/hammer down/holstered/on body is OK, but you cannot remove/handle an outer belt with an empty pistol in a holster unless in a safe area? From my short experience, some/many 3 gunners would like to/do remove their belts to reconfigure between stages. Some using Tec locks or Safariland ELS remove the holstered pistol from the belt. So if you can only handle/remove a holstered handgun in a safe area, then at least for 3 gun events it would be nice to have a safe area at each stage. I understand this is most likely a conscious decision by USPSA to not change the gun handling rules.

- Shotgun 8+1 at the start! Implies no mag limit after the beep? (Open, Tac, etc.)

Edited June 20, 2012 by Nuke8401

[Chuck Anderson]

From a new three gunner's view and inexperienced USPSA shooter, I have only shot club level USPSA 3 gun matches, just need some clarification:

- It looks like it is OK to uncase a long gun at your car as long as it has a chamber flag? Since it’s OK to handle a long gun other times with a flag.

- Pistol empty/hammer down/holstered/on body is OK, but you cannot remove/handle an outer belt with an empty pistol in a holster unless in a safe area? From my short experience, some/many 3 gunners would like to/do remove their belts to reconfigure between stages. Some using Tec locks or Safariland ELS remove the holstered pistol from the belt. So if you can only handle/remove a holstered handgun in a safe area, then at least for 3 gun events it would be nice to have a safe area at each stage. I understand this is most likely a conscious decision by USPSA to not change the gun handling rules.

- Shotgun 8+1 at the start! Implies no mag limit after the beep? (Open, Tac, etc.)

Yes to all three. I'm not sold on the last one. These are proposed rules. Anything can change with enough input and comments to your AD or here. That's the reason the rules are up before we voted on them.

[outerlimits]

Most of it is re-hashed pistol rules. Coulda been about 15-20 pages, max. Nothin new and exciting here.

I thought the same thing when Chris sent them to me. I was hoping for a nice short rule set. When I actually tried to go in and cut stuff out that I thought wasn't needed...well there really wasn't much there to cut.

How about some constructive criticism? What 30 pages can be removed. Keep in mind this is a rule set that needs to be used for everything from National Championships with a dedicated staff to the small local matches that might not have the veteran 3 gun staff that can pull on past experience or old USPSA rules for rulings and decisions.

Sent mine to Chris.

One of the strangest things I saw was in the appendix sections governing division firearms. Reading them word for word, the implication is if you do not have a "factory produced" rifle, you are in open division. In other words if you built your own using company a's lower and company b's upper, it isn't a factory produced rifle. That can't be the intention. But clearly, the appendixes state rifles must be factory produced for all divisions except open. Or maybe I had too much beer last night.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Most of it is re-hashed pistol rules. Coulda been about 15-20 pages, max. Nothin new and exciting here.

I thought the same thing when Chris sent them to me. I was hoping for a nice short rule set. When I actually tried to go in and cut stuff out that I thought wasn't needed...well there really wasn't much there to cut.

How about some constructive criticism? What 30 pages can be removed. Keep in mind this is a rule set that needs to be used for everything from National Championships with a dedicated staff to the small local matches that might not have the veteran 3 gun staff that can pull on past experience or old USPSA rules for rulings and decisions.

Sent mine to Chris.

One of the strangest things I saw was in the appendix sections governing division firearms. Reading them word for word, the implication is if you do not have a "factory produced" rifle, you are in open division. In other words if you built your own using company a's lower and company b's upper, it isn't a factory produced rifle. That can't be the intention. But clearly, the appendixes state rifles must be factory produced for all divisions except open. Or maybe I had too much beer last night.

I need to read through everything but I'll comment on what I have read in this thread since that's what I do.

By law a Rifle consists of a lower receiver. All lower receivers that I have ever seen are produced in one of the not so many factories that produce forged lowers. Billet stuff may be different but I can't forsee anyone finding an advantageous way to mill a lower that anyone will care about.

The trend in the majority of the matches is to allow loading more shotgun shells after the start signal so that is one step in the right direction. I know this hurts the new shooter that may only have a 7 or 8 round tube but if someone is willing to spend the $50-100 for ammo it takes to shoot even a small club match then they will likely be able to buy an $80 aftermarket mag tube if they feel it is beneficial. I also would like to add that having more options on getting your shotgun full of ammo speeds up the slowest gun in 3 gun. If we can load 4 more shells while moving then that is four shells we don't have to load while standing still at a target array.

Now that I have shot one HM match I still don't know what to think about all the different HM rule sets. The purists want to keep HM .45, pump, and .308. I really enjoyed shooting my .308 with my semi auto shotgun and my 9mm. We need to ask ourselves what our goal with these two smallest divisions is. Are we trying to keep them as they started or are we trying to grow them? I would vote grow them. This will lead to more shooters which then leads to more sponsors which everyone likes come prize table time. So how about this? .308 rifle, semi auto shotgun, 9mm pistol. If someone chooses to shoot pump and a major pistol caliber such as .40 & .45 then those pumps and pistols that are old school only need 1 C or better to neutralize targets. Auto shotguns and 9mm pistols require two hits on paper. Obviously steel would count the same. Unfortunately I don't think there is a good solution to this one since there are so many options out there now and do few shooters shooting the division. One thing I do know is that one of the largest USPSA multi gun matches behind nationals is Arkansas section. It has had to stop offering HM at all due to lack of participation. Which is a very bad thing IMHO.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[sdm74]

Most of it is re-hashed pistol rules. Coulda been about 15-20 pages, max. Nothin new and exciting here.

.

Sent mine to Chris.

One of the strangest things I saw was in the appendix sections governing division firearms. Reading them word for word, the implication is if you do not have a "factory produced" rifle, you are in open division. In other words if you built your own using company a's lower and company b's upper, it isn't a factory produced rifle. That can't be the intention. But clearly, the appendixes state rifles must be factory produced for all divisions except open. Or maybe I had too much beer last night.

Hope that's not true

[DocMedic]

1.2 Only current USPSA classifications may be used in determining Class awards

How can this be supported when you cannot in fact gain classification in multigun

2.6.6 Where the firearm has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the

course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a firearm is declared unserviceable or unsafe

during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may

still be attempted by the affected competitor after the firearm has been repaired, and prior to when

match results are declared final by the Match Director.

Is this to include prop guns?

5.3.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his firearm to point rearwards,

that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop,

allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not

I'm guessing we'll never sling a rifle or shotgun, correct?

10.3.1 There are two types of paper targets approved for use in all levels of USPSA matches, the Classic target

and the Metric target. (see Appendix . Reduced size versions of the metric target are also approved for

level one matches only.

I take it we won't see the 3GunNation targets at any USPSA multigun event?

in HMTD so your allowed to use a .40cal, .308, and 12ga auto correct?

but in HMLD you can only use a 1911, which also means your only allowed to have 8 rounds in a mag, so my question is where did this come up as I've never seen this done at a match.

[Benelli Chick]

Now that I have shot one HM match I still don't know what to think about all the different HM rule sets. The purists want to keep HM .45, pump, and .308. I really enjoyed shooting my .308 with my semi auto shotgun and my 9mm. We need to ask ourselves what our goal with these two smallest divisions is. Are we trying to keep them as they started or are we trying to grow them? I would vote grow them. This will lead to more shooters which then leads to more sponsors which everyone likes come prize table time. So how about this? .308 rifle, semi auto shotgun, 9mm pistol. If someone chooses to shoot pump and a major pistol caliber such as .40 & .45 then those pumps and pistols that are old school only need 1 C or better to neutralize targets. Auto shotguns and 9mm pistols require two hits on paper. Obviously steel would count the same. Unfortunately I don't think there is a good solution to this one since there are so many options out there now and do few shooters shooting the division. One thing I do know is that one of the largest USPSA multi gun matches behind nationals is Arkansas section. It has had to stop offering HM at all due to lack of participation. Which is a very bad thing IMHO.

- I apparently screwed up the quotey thing. Jesse said this!

You can shoot tactical with the arrangement you list. .308, semi-auto and 9mm. You're not shooting HM! Even the match that started "Heavy Tactical" made sure it wasn't called He-Man, Heavy Metal or any HM type name. It's not heavy except rifle.

We've got over 45 He-Man Scope and almost 20 He-Man Iron with .308, .45 and a pump.

You're not really growing a division, if you just tell people to change one thing from tac, and put them in another division.

Do you want to put all the people that are shooting .45's in Tac to join Heavy Pistol???

It's good to see He-Man growing! As the people that came to the He-Man match said, it can be kind of fun...but the HEAVY in that other name, keeps me from shooting it...AND it would keep me from shooting your "Heavy Light" too. A .308 is a lot of gun for this old woman!

I would agree, ANY 45 should be acceptable in Heavy Limited.

Just my .02!!!

Denise

Edited June 20, 2012 by Benelli Chick

[TallGuy]

I scanned the rules mostly looking for the one I feel strongly about.

8.3.7 In order to make long rifle shots “worth shooting” they may be designated as an enhanced penalty target. A miss on an enhanced penalty targets can be up to a 20 second penalty. Only to be used for targets beyond 100 yards.

I watched numerous competitors at the 2012 MultiGun Nationals fire 4 shots into a berm (to avoid the FTE penalty) instead of trying to hit 4 targets placed at 200 yards. "Intentional grounding" if you like football analogies. Yes, the wind was blowing cross. Yes it was gusting to 30 mph. So what. Are we shooters? Competitors? Gamers? I did my best to hit those targets and learned a lot in the process. And yes, I ran out of ammo before I hit that last piece of steel. The experience has inspired me to become a better marksman.

I'd like to see the penalty harsher. How much harsher? Maybe there should be a mandatory minimum 20 secs with an upper limit at the discretion of the Match Director(s). If the shot is really that difficult, make it a bonus similar to the bonus long range shots at Ironman.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Mike Saslawsky

TY56783

[MarkCO]

I scanned the rules mostly looking for the one I feel strongly about.

8.3.7 In order to make long rifle shots “worth shooting” they may be designated as an enhanced penalty target. A miss on an enhanced penalty targets can be up to a 20 second penalty. Only to be used for targets beyond 100 yards.

I watched numerous competitors at the 2012 MultiGun Nationals fire 4 shots into a berm (to avoid the FTE penalty) instead of trying to hit 4 targets placed at 200 yards. "Intentional grounding" if you like football analogies. Yes, the wind was blowing cross. Yes it was gusting to 30 mph. So what. Are we shooters? Competitors? Gamers? I did my best to hit those targets and learned a lot in the process. And yes, I ran out of ammo before I hit that last piece of steel. The experience has inspired me to become a better marksman.

I'd like to see the penalty harsher. How much harsher? Maybe there should be a mandatory minimum 20 secs with an upper limit at the discretion of the Match Director(s). If the shot is really that difficult, make it a bonus similar to the bonus long range shots at Ironman.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Mike Saslawsky

TY56783

Mike, the 2012 MG Nationals used Time-Plus which did not allow enhanced penalties, so those were not high penalty misses. This has been rectified in the new rulest for Time-Plus.

[Stlhead]

I shoot HM and limited. I do not regularly shoot any pistol matches, I prefer 3 gun and long range "tactical" matches. I feel that going back to the 1911 only for the heavy metal pistol is a mistake, I am happy for the return of the 8 round limit, but I think that any 45 should be allowed (or at least a revolver ). The inclusion of non magnified optics on the rifle is also a concern, I am not personally opposed to it, but I have been told that the majority of HM shooters are not fond of allowing of optics at all, and I would not want to splinter an already small group. It would seem reasonable to make the change to allow red dots, in an effort to be consistent with limited, but at what cost?

As to the increased target values for long range, I am fine with that. If you think that the "bonus" targets at Ironman are actually bonus targets, you are kidding yourself. If you want to finish well on the stage, you had better consider them as mandatory targets 225 seconds is just too much time to leave on the table. If you want the shooter to hit long range targets, just jack up the penalties or give a big bonus for hitting them, same difference.

Another thing I noticed was that steel targets are to be painted, but it does not specify at what frequency other than not for every shooter. I also did not see anything stating that the targets must actually be visible. It would seem that the first requirement of a safe target would be that it was visible to all competitors who where expected to shoot at it. For me I will fall back on 4 moa with a contrasting background preferably falling to score, but that horse has been beaten to death already.

[MarkCO]

Another thing I noticed was that steel targets are to be painted, but it does not specify at what frequency other than not for every shooter. I also did not see anything stating that the targets must actually be visible. It would seem that the first requirement of a safe target would be that it was visible to all competitors who where expected to shoot at it. For me I will fall back on 4 moa with a contrasting background preferably falling to score, but that horse has been beaten to death already.

As one of a scant few people who has actually run a larger USPSA MG match, I will give some feedback.

As for painting all of our MGM pistol and shotgun steel, we did it at the start of each squad on each stage. "Visible" is of course open to interpretation. I'm on the edge of needing glasses, but I could see all the targets with the naked eye. For the "Iron" shooters, the targets at range could have used a backer due to the combination of the sighting system and obscuring the target with the muzzle (1x Optics and Irons ARE different). However, the long target was a full sized Metric target and the others were no more than 220. ALL were greater than 4MOA. We used Metal-Mans with the "RM3G" designed horizontal flash cards on stage 1 which was the rifle only stage with some short to medium range targets (110 yards to 550 yards). JJ and Denise have been using these for several years and frankly, for ease and durability, it is probably the best target on the market right now. But, most of that was my call.

The stages were reviewed by NROI. Granted, it was a bit of a painful process, but as more matches go through the process and with the improvements in the new proposed rules, this will surely be easier. There is benefit in having the stages reviewed. However, one recomendation I made to Chris is to get some folks who shoot a variety of 3G matches to serve in the review process. Having a base pistol guy review 3Gun stages was some of the challenge, but we both learned some stuff, some that I think even transferred over to improving Nationals. I won't point out matches or stages, but anyone who has shot more than a few majors can recall some really stupid stages, dump barrels, scoring issues, etc. that would have been caught had a more critical or reasonable eye reviewed those stages.

Chris and the others who worked on these rules solicited input from several folks and made changes based on many things, some of which may not be obvious. Some are based on being more in line with the majority approach to reduce complexity and confusion of the competitors. I "prefer" 8+1 max at all times for shotgun in all divisions except open, but, most matches don't do it that way and it makes some sense to align with the herd at times. 55 pages...long, but necessary if there is to be a solid defensible ruleset with all the gamers, whiners, etc. Arbitrary and changing MD decisions are unfair, especially as the stakes are raised, and they happen all too often with the "thinner" rulesets.

I've never seen a umpire change the size of the field in baseball, but all the fields are cetainly defined.

I don't shoot Heavy, the guys that actually do should be the ones that are listened to, provided they can provide rationale for their preferences.

Edited June 20, 2012 by MarkCO

[Jesse Tischauser]

I apparently screwed up the quotey thing. Jesse said this!

You can shoot tactical with the arrangement you list. .308, semi-auto and 9mm. You're not shooting HM! Even the match that started "Heavy Tactical" made sure it wasn't called He-Man, Heavy Metal or any HM type name. It's not heavy except rifle.

We've got over 45 He-Man Scope and almost 20 He-Man Iron with .308, .45 and a pump.

You're not really growing a division, if you just tell people to change one thing from tac, and put them in another division.

Do you want to put all the people that are shooting .45's in Tac to join Heavy Pistol???

It's good to see He-Man growing! As the people that came to the He-Man match said, it can be kind of fun...but the HEAVY in that other name, keeps me from shooting it...AND it would keep me from shooting your "Heavy Light" too. A .308 is a lot of gun for this old woman!

I would agree, ANY 45 should be acceptable in Heavy Limited.

Just my .02!!!

Denise

But you can shoot tactical with a .45 and a pump too. I like the heavy Tac just by changing rifles just like limited Tac by removing the scope.

That is awesome that so many Shooters are shooting HM at RM3G! I wonder if it's because you and JJ actually shoot HM and Limited so you know how To make the match more enjoyable for those divisions or if it's because the HM and Lim Shooters are getting to that HUGE prize table so quick?

Either way I think we can see what two things are attracting Shooters to the division.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[Stlhead]

Another thing I noticed was that steel targets are to be painted, but it does not specify at what frequency other than not for every shooter. I also did not see anything stating that the targets must actually be visible. It would seem that the first requirement of a safe target would be that it was visible to all competitors who where expected to shoot at it. For me I will fall back on 4 moa with a contrasting background preferably falling to score, but that horse has been beaten to death already.

As one of a scant few people who has actually run a larger USPSA MG match, I will give some feedback.

As for painting all of our MGM pistol and shotgun steel, we did it at the start of each squad on each stage. "Visible" is of course open to interpretation. I'm on the edge of needing glasses, but I could see all the targets with the naked eye. For the "Iron" shooters, the targets at range could have used a backer due to the combination of the sighting system and obscuring the target with the muzzle (1x Optics and Irons ARE different). However, the long target was a full sized Metric target and the others were no more than 220. ALL were greater than 4MOA. We used Metal-Mans with the "RM3G" designed horizontal flash cards on stage 1 which was the rifle only stage with some short to medium range targets (110 yards to 550 yards). JJ and Denise have been using these for several years and frankly, for ease and durability, it is probably the best target on the market right now. But, most of that was my call.

The stages were reviewed by NROI. Granted, it was a bit of a painful process, but as more matches go through the process and with the improvements in the new proposed rules, this will surely be easier. There is benefit in having the stages reviewed. However, one recomendation I made to Chris is to get some folks who shoot a variety of 3G matches to serve in the review process. Having a base pistol guy review 3Gun stages was some of the challenge, but we both learned some stuff, some that I think even transferred over to improving Nationals. I won't point out matches or stages, but anyone who has shot more than a few majors can recall some really stupid stages, dump barrels, scoring issues, etc. that would have been caught had a more critical or reasonable eye reviewed those stages.

Chris and the others who worked on these rules solicited input from several folks and made changes based on many things, some of which may not be obvious. Some are based on being more in line with the majority approach to reduce complexity and confusion of the competitors. I "prefer" 8+1 max at all times for shotgun in all divisions except open, but, most matches don't do it that way and it makes some sense to align with the herd at times. 55 pages...long, but necessary if there is to be a solid defensible ruleset with all the gamers, whiners, etc. Arbitrary and changing MD decisions are unfair, especially as the stakes are raised, and they happen all too often with the "thinner" rulesets.

I've never seen a umpire change the size of the field in baseball, but all the fields are cetainly defined.

I don't shoot Heavy, the guys that actually do should be the ones that are listened to, provided they can provide rationale for their preferences.

Mark,

While I appreciate the fact that you tried to run a good match under the rules you chose to use, I was commenting on the currently posted rules that comments have been requested on. What you did at your match under the previous (or current) rules has no bearing on my opinions of the proposed rule set. It sounds like you did a good job of presenting the targets, I would think that a rule requiring the targets to be visible would be good, there seems to be a rule for everything else. I still do not see the matches that I attend changing over to these rules anytime soon, but I have offered up my opinions as that is what was asked of me.

[ziebart]

Thanks for putting together a single USPSA ruleset for Multigun it should help a lot. I know everyone would like a rulebook that is just one page but that isn't going to happen. That said I'm sure there are some places we can cut a few words, but it would only reduce it by a page at tops. A concern with reducing the verbiage is the intent may be lost, especially with those trying to start up their first multigun match.

2.3.1 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices, specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them

without penalty.

To

2.3.1 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices may be carried anywhere on the competitor without penalty.

Another would be

8.3.7 In order to make long rifle shots “worth shooting” they may be designated as an enhanced penalty target. A miss on an enhanced penalty targets can be up to a 20 second penalty. Only to be used for targets beyond 100 yards.

To

8.3.7 Missed steel targets over 100 yards may be designated as an enhanced penalty of up to 20 seconds.

8.3.6 In order for match flow it may be necessary to limit times per shooter on long range rifle stages and may be used only for Rifle or Multigun stages that have rifle targets set at least 100 yards away. When the shooter "times out," the stage is scored as shot including any misses and FTE penalties. The max time is the time recorded. Minimum time limit is 180 seconds. Time limits should be set for match flow and not as a penalty for slower shooters or to create a fixed time stage. If not specified, the maximum time for any stage (including target penalties) is 500 seconds.

To

8.3.6 Max times may be used on stages with targets farther than 100 yards. Minimum time is 180 seconds, and if not specified is 500 seconds to include penalties. When max time is exceeded RO will call "stop," record max time and score stage as shot to include misses and FTE penalties.

Only actual rule change I would make is setting 12guage as minimum for major in Tactical. I know that is what most shoot now anyways but I would prefer if there was a difference between minor and major shotgun. I've never shot a HF scored multigun so I'm not sure it would matter.

[chendersby]

Keep it comming guys. Some really good input so far. I wish I had time to respond to each individually. After spending close to a year on these it is good to get some outside input. I have quite a few tweaks planned based on you guys. And also some discussion subjects for our Board meeting.

Thanks to all

[ziebart]

I can appreciate wanting long range steel painted at least between squads, but at Nationals this year that would have slowed things down considerably as multiple bays would have had to go cold at the same time to safely paint the 200 yard steel. I felt the steel was plenty visible without painting between squads, but I was shooting a 4x scope and iron shooters may feel otherwise. I don't think painting steel should be mandatory. Perhaps there should be another document with suggested guidelines for good course design.

I don't shoot HM nor do I plan on shooting it in the future, but I do have some thoughts on it after talking to people who do. First I don't think there needs to be a concentrated effort to recruit shooters to HM, there isn't one to bring people to the revolver division in USPSA. But if you want more people to move to HM you need a consistent set of equipment requirements, and I feel that they should be significantly different than tactical. It is one thing for a person to buy a new mag extension to shoot a match and another to buy a new semi auto shotgun. No you don't need a semi but if the rest of the competition is using one you will want to as well if you want a chance at winning. To me HM = 308win semi auto rifle, 45acp pistol at 8 rounds, and a 12 gauge pump gun. Without the pump it just seems like tactical but shooting more expensive rifle rounds. Of course this is coming from a guy who doesn't shoot HM so like was said earlier please defer to those who shoot the division for their opinions.

Thanks again for the hard work on this, and opening it up for public review.

[Alaskapopo]

Just my opinion but I think it is a bad idea to allow 9mm pistols into heavy metal. That would just be tac optics with a different rifle. Heavy metal should be in my opinion .45 acp or .44 revolver. I also think it would be a good idea to allow semi auto shotguns in with heavy tac optics but keep pumps with heavy irons for tradition. This division is about power and allowing minor power factor pistols defeats that.

Pat