R.O. Interference under 8.6.4

[mikegot38]

Here are the 2 scenarios I am concerned may be RO interference under 8.6.4.(the portion underlined) In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence

1. Shooter is traversing a long course of fire with the RO and Scorekeeper in somewaht proper condition. RO calls out alpha-mike. Shooters noticably hesitates as if to come back to make up the mike but continues on and finishes the stage and complains at the end. Is it RO interefence when he calls Alpha-Mike and if so, does shooters stop and ask for reshoot? If RO interference, does shooter finish and ask for reshoot.

2. Shooter is shooting a (sort of) medium course of fire and RO calls muzzle on clearly legal reloads because RO does not like the usual USPSA/IPSC reload where muzzle is high left or right rather that pointed directly into rear impact area. R.O. intereference under 8.6.4? Very distracting to all shooters each time he does it.

What say you?

Edited June 9, 2012 by mikegot38

[GrumpyOne]

I would say both are interference. Only word the RO should say in the middle of a COF is STOP!

Shooter finishes COF in first scenario, the asks for re-shoot.

Edited June 9, 2012 by GrumpyOne

[Poppa Bear]

1. Ask for a new RO and a reshoot.

2. If the muzzle is outside of local rules then ask for a new RO. If there are local rules dealing with muzzle over the berm then you just have to deal with it.

[MarkCO]

Only word the RO should say in the middle of a COF is STOP!

Not true. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

However, if I was the competitor and this happened more than once after the offending RO had been told the correct way to officiate, I would report same to the RM. If that did not rectify the situation, I would simply ask for a new RO every time the offender was ROing and I was up to shoot. If the offending RO was certiifed, I might refer the situation to NROI.

As an RM, I would issues reshoots in both cases and insist the RO change his ways or not RO.

Edited June 9, 2012 by MarkCO

[Chris iliff]

Why is RO calling out hits while shooter is shooting? Shooter may have grounds for interference.

That's a tuff one. I almost completely stopped one time because some buffoon in the peanut gallery made a loud noise that I took for "STOP", thinking it was the RO. I figured it out and kept going, but for several seconds I got screwed. I didn't ask for a reshoot, but I have wondered if I could have gotten one if I had.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Chris iliff

[Nik Habicht]

1 is a problem. If you're going to score behind the shooter, you really need at least a third RO -- to be doing the scoring while 1 and 2 are tailing the shooter.

RO 3 is also responsible for the safety of the delegate -- and should be communicating quietly with the delegate. It's a lot to handle/perform correctly -- so I'd rather avoid it, if at all possible.....

2 -- I'll give the RO a lot of leeway here. I'm not overly fond of warnings; but unless I'm running every shooter, I don't want to second guess the RO.....

[GrumpyOne]

Only word the RO should say in the middle of a COF is STOP!

Not true. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

However, if I was the competitor and this happened more than once after the offending RO had been told the correct way to officiate, I would report same to the RM. If that did not rectify the situation, I would simply ask for a new RO every time the offender was ROing and I was up to shoot. If the offending RO was certiifed, I might refer the situation to NROI.

As an RM, I would issues reshoots in both cases and insist the RO change his ways or not RO.

Notice that I said "should"..... Either don't say a bloody word while I'm shooting, or say stop. Yes, they can issue warnings, but for all intents and purposes, the only word they SHOULD say while the shooter is shooting is STOP.

[Sarge]

Only word the RO should say in the middle of a COF is STOP!

Not true. 8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

However, if I was the competitor and this happened more than once after the offending RO had been told the correct way to officiate, I would report same to the RM. If that did not rectify the situation, I would simply ask for a new RO every time the offender was ROing and I was up to shoot. If the offending RO was certiifed, I might refer the situation to NROI.

As an RM, I would issues reshoots in both cases and insist the RO change his ways or not RO.

I'm with Grumpy on this one. Even though an RO may issue warnings he really shouldn't. Any blatant distraction from an RO, peanut gallery etc, I'm going to the RM with the intent of getting a reshoot.

[Steven Cline]

Here are the 2 scenarios I am concerned may be RO interference under 8.6.4.(the portion underlined) In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence

1. Shooter is traversing a long course of fire with the RO and Scorekeeper in somewaht proper condition. RO calls out alpha-mike. Shooters noticably hesitates as if to come back to make up the mike but continues on and finishes the stage and complains at the end. Is it RO interefence when he calls Alpha-Mike and if so, does shooters stop and ask for reshoot? If RO interference, does shooter finish and ask for reshoot.

Interference. If the shooter asks for a re-shoot I believe it should be given.

2. Shooter is shooting a (sort of) medium course of fire and RO calls muzzle on clearly legal reloads because RO does not like the usual USPSA/IPSC reload where muzzle is high left or right rather that pointed directly into rear impact area. R.O. intereference under 8.6.4? Very distracting to all shooters each time he does it.

Interference. While the RO can issue safety warnings I apply this to the USPSA safety rules, not local club rules. If the shooter was approaching the 90 deg median intercept the shooter has no complaint. In calling muzzle when the shooter did not approach 90 deg median intercept- interference.

[Gary Stevens]

Here are the 2 scenarios I am concerned may be RO interference under 8.6.4.(the portion underlined) In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence

1. Shooter is traversing a long course of fire with the RO and Scorekeeper in somewaht proper condition. RO calls out alpha-mike. Shooters noticably hesitates as if to come back to make up the mike but continues on and finishes the stage and complains at the end. Is it RO interefence when he calls Alpha-Mike and if so, does shooters stop and ask for reshoot? If RO interference, does shooter finish and ask for reshoot.

2. Shooter is shooting a (sort of) medium course of fire and RO calls muzzle on clearly legal reloads because RO does not like the usual USPSA/IPSC reload where muzzle is high left or right rather that pointed directly into rear impact area. R.O. intereference under 8.6.4? Very distracting to all shooters each time he does it.

What say you?

How would you know what is in the RO's mind when they issued the warning?

[mactiger]

1. Ask for a new RO and a reshoot.

2. If the muzzle is outside of local rules then ask for a new RO. If there are local rules dealing with muzzle over the berm then you just have to deal with it.

No such thing as a local rule in USPSA.

[mikegot38]

1. Ask for a new RO and a reshoot.

2. If the muzzle is outside of local rules then ask for a new RO. If there are local rules dealing with muzzle over the berm then you just have to deal with it.

No such thing as a local rule in USPSA.

And therein lies the rub. The RO in scenario 2 thinks that he should be enforcing a club rule about muzzle direction on reloads without getting approval of USPSA and its President.

[Poppa Bear]

I realize that there is no official recognition of "Local Rules", But many will issue warnings because they feel it is appropriate based on:

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction,

specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being

unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

We do not issue muzzle warnings just because your gun is pointed at the concrete wall while we are shooting indoors. You shoot the wall your day is done. Send a shot over the berm and your day is done. It is an unfortunate fact that many clubs will lose their range privileges if 10.4.1 is violated so they take a very active roll in enforcing rules outside of USPSA. I would not like to shoot at a range that enforced muzzle discipline that is stricter than the USPSA rules, but I would deal with it if it keeps the club in the good graces of the range.

[mikegot38]

I realize that there is no official recognition of "Local Rules", But many will issue warnings because they feel it is appropriate based on:

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction,

specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being

unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

We do not issue muzzle warnings just because your gun is pointed at the concrete wall while we are shooting indoors. You shoot the wall your day is done. Send a shot over the berm and your day is done. It is an unfortunate fact that many clubs will lose their range privileges if 10.4.1 is violated so they take a very active roll in enforcing rules outside of USPSA. I would not like to shoot at a range that enforced muzzle discipline that is stricter than the USPSA rules, but I would deal with it if it keeps the club in the good graces of the range.

But keep in mind that a fingr in the trigger guard while moving (to a certain extent) and while reloading is a match DQ and is often overlooked by local clubs. After all, if a competitor's finger is not in the trigger guard the gun has difficulty firing itself.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm with Grumpy on this one. Even though an RO may issue warnings he really shouldn't. Any blatant distraction from an RO, peanut gallery etc, I'm going to the RM with the intent of getting a reshoot.

Good luck with that.....

Keep in mind that under 8.6.4, it's RO discretion as to whether to offer a reshoot. I'd wager most ROs wouldn't offer one after a safety warning, and would score the stage. As RM, I'd probably say that's game over -- since you were now aware of time/hits/penalties.....

[aztecdriver]

I'm with Grumpy on this one. Even though an RO may issue warnings he really shouldn't. Any blatant distraction from an RO, peanut gallery etc, I'm going to the RM with the intent of getting a reshoot.

Good luck with that.....

Keep in mind that under 8.6.4, it's RO discretion as to whether to offer a reshoot. I'd wager most ROs wouldn't offer one after a safety warning, and would score the stage. As RM, I'd probably say that's game over -- since you were now aware of time/hits/penalties.....

Thanks for the reminder... next time I feel that I'm interfered with I'll just call for them RM before they start to say anything...

[Nik Habicht]

I'm with Grumpy on this one. Even though an RO may issue warnings he really shouldn't. Any blatant distraction from an RO, peanut gallery etc, I'm going to the RM with the intent of getting a reshoot.

Good luck with that.....

Keep in mind that under 8.6.4, it's RO discretion as to whether to offer a reshoot. I'd wager most ROs wouldn't offer one after a safety warning, and would score the stage. As RM, I'd probably say that's game over -- since you were now aware of time/hits/penalties.....

Thanks for the reminder... next time I feel that I'm interfered with I'll just call for them RM before they start to say anything...

To which my response would most likely be: The time is xx.xx, please record that and call the RM. T1, 2alpha.....

Got to keep the stage moving. Interference is at RO discretion for a reason; we want to prevent safety concerns before they occur. A reshoot isn't likely to happen.

Now, if, while others on the squad shoot, you notice the the RO has a habit of issuing warnings unneccessarily, I'd call the RM discreetly, and have a quiet chat with him. I also might ask for a different RO when my turn rolled around....

....or I'd work on mental strategies to tune him out....

...then again, I've been known to have conversations with ROs/SOs while shooting a stage..... :)

Early 00s, at the IDPA Winter Nationals in the big firing range at the front of the Academy, I hit a no-shoot.

SO to scorekeeper while I'm still shooting: "That's a no-shoot"

Me: "I know that's a fracking no-shoot"

SO: "Sorry about that"

Me: "Don't mention it, you're not the guy on the trigger...."

Bottom line: Safety warnings are like weak-hand strings -- may not be encountered often, but you should prepare for them anyway. Would you want a friend hurt, because safety warnings were abolished, and an RO remained silent, when he could have said something? (Good luck finding willing range officers under that restriction.....)

[Sarge]

I'm with Grumpy on this one. Even though an RO may issue warnings he really shouldn't. Any blatant distraction from an RO, peanut gallery etc, I'm going to the RM with the intent of getting a reshoot.

Good luck with that.....

Keep in mind that under 8.6.4, it's RO discretion as to whether to offer a reshoot. I'd wager most ROs wouldn't offer one after a safety warning, and would score the stage. As RM, I'd probably say that's game over -- since you were now aware of time/hits/penalties.....

Thanks for the reminder... next time I feel that I'm interfered with I'll just call for them RM before they start to say anything...

To which my response would most likely be: The time is xx.xx, please record that and call the RM. T1, 2alpha.....

Got to keep the stage moving. Interference is at RO discretion for a reason; we want to prevent safety concerns before they occur. A reshoot isn't likely to happen.

Now, if, while others on the squad shoot, you notice the the RO has a habit of issuing warnings unneccessarily, I'd call the RM discreetly, and have a quiet chat with him. I also might ask for a different RO when my turn rolled around....

....or I'd work on mental strategies to tune him out....

...then again, I've been known to have conversations with ROs/SOs while shooting a stage..... :)

Early 00s, at the IDPA Winter Nationals in the big firing range at the front of the Academy, I hit a no-shoot.

SO to scorekeeper while I'm still shooting: "That's a no-shoot"

Me: "I know that's a fracking no-shoot"

SO: "Sorry about that"

Me: "Don't mention it, you're not the guy on the trigger...."

Bottom line: Safety warnings are like weak-hand strings -- may not be encountered often, but you should prepare for them anyway. Would you want a friend hurt, because safety warnings were abolished, and an RO remained silent, when he could have said something? You mean like, STOP? (Good luck finding willing range officers under that restriction.....)

Ugh... Another rules debate. I don't want to hear anything from an RO other than range commands. Don't yell finger while I'm shooting! Call stop and then back it up.

I have had shooters stop dead in there tracks because they heard loud chatter from the peanut gallery! On more than one occasion! If the RO did not offer me a reshoot over that you can bet your a$$ I would be talking to the RM and it would not be discreet, it would be a formal conversation.

So you are advocating tuning out an RO? That in and of itself may be considered unsafe by some.

Where are all of these substandard RO's that we keep hearing about? I don't think I've ever seen or heard an RO call out a score loud enough for a shooter to hear it during a COF. I have seen a bunch of shooters informed that they had a mike on a prescored target and told where it is so they can go look at it before pasting.

I also pay little to no credence to local rules when it comes to sanctioned matches. Just like I think it is dumb to put your gear and gun on at the trunk of your car I also think it is dumb to try to reload a gun on the clock without moving the muzzle away from the berm.

[Nik Habicht]

So you are advocating tuning out an RO? That in and of itself may be considered unsafe by some.

Let me make this perfectly clear: No, I am not. You should definitely be able to hear an RO, process what is said, and react appropriately. I however know that it is possible to filter out distractions from the shooting that are non-relevant.....

I've gotten the "finger" or "muzzle" warnings -- and for the record I don't like them either. I am however -- after some practice -- capable of processing that input, and either modifying what I'm doing (because the warning really was relevant and appropriate) or ignoring it -- such as when I can feel my trigger finger clearly indexed on the frame during a reload....

[Nik Habicht]

Ugh... Another rules debate.

That's what this forum's for....

I don't want to hear anything from an RO other than range commands. Don't yell finger while I'm shooting! Call stop and then back it up.

Then don't give ROs a reason to call out a safety warning. When it happens, accept it and move on. Like you, I don't see substandard ROing a lot. That said, ROs are human too and may occasionally make a mistake, sometimes one that they consider to be significant enough to offer a reshoot. Their discretion -- because they're in the best position to make the call....

I have had shooters stop dead in there tracks because they heard loud chatter from the peanut gallery! On more than one occasion! If the RO did not offer me a reshoot over that you can bet your a$$ I would be talking to the RM and it would not be discreet, it would be a formal conversation.

Keep in mind that I recommended discreet, if you observe an RO who seems to be repeatedly performing his job in a less than ideal manner. And the reason for that recommendation is that it gives the RM an opportunity to quietly wander by the stage and observe the RO's behavior....

As for the peanut gallery -- barring something blatant designed to interfere with your run, this isn't golf or tennis. Ranges are noisy.....

I also pay little to no credence to local rules when it comes to sanctioned matches. Just like I think it is dumb to put your gear and gun on at the trunk of your car I also think it is dumb to try to reload a gun on the clock without moving the muzzle away from the berm.

There are no local rules....

[mikegot38]

I don't think I've ever seen or heard an RO call out a score loud enough for a shooter to hear it during a COF.

I had it happen last year at a Level 3 match that I would rather not name.

[aztecdriver]

Thanks for the reminder... next time I feel that I'm interfered with I'll just call for them RM before they start to say anything...

To which my response would most likely be: The time is xx.xx, please record that and call the RM. T1, 2alpha.....

Got to keep the stage moving. Interference is at RO discretion for a reason; we want to prevent safety concerns before they occur. A reshoot isn't likely to happen.

Now, if, while others on the squad shoot, you notice the the RO has a habit of issuing warnings unneccessarily, I'd call the RM discreetly, and have a quiet chat with him. I also might ask for a different RO when my turn rolled around....

....or I'd work on mental strategies to tune him out....

Bottom line: Safety warnings are like weak-hand strings -- may not be encountered often, but you should prepare for them anyway. Would you want a friend hurt, because safety warnings were abolished, and an RO remained silent, when he could have said something? (Good luck finding willing range officers under that restriction.....)

Sorry for being short - I wasn't referring to safety warnings at all - while I don't want to hear them - either I broke a rule or not - there is a place in the rules for it and I wouldn't argue having received one. My concern is the possible interference from being in the wrong place where I have to stop myself in order not to put the RO in a dangerous situation or for contact that an RO may not believe to be interference but typically should be. Not everyone handles it the correct way and to avoid having the offer that I SHOULD have received from being a non-starter because they called out a time or a score, I'd rather keep my options open. Before I holster, I'm going to ask, "didn't you bump me back there?" or whatever, just to be sure they don't run through the routine call outs.

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the reminder... next time I feel that I'm interfered with I'll just call for them RM before they start to say anything...

To which my response would most likely be: The time is xx.xx, please record that and call the RM. T1, 2alpha.....

Got to keep the stage moving. Interference is at RO discretion for a reason; we want to prevent safety concerns before they occur. A reshoot isn't likely to happen.

Now, if, while others on the squad shoot, you notice the the RO has a habit of issuing warnings unneccessarily, I'd call the RM discreetly, and have a quiet chat with him. I also might ask for a different RO when my turn rolled around....

....or I'd work on mental strategies to tune him out....

Bottom line: Safety warnings are like weak-hand strings -- may not be encountered often, but you should prepare for them anyway. Would you want a friend hurt, because safety warnings were abolished, and an RO remained silent, when he could have said something? (Good luck finding willing range officers under that restriction.....)

Sorry for being short - I wasn't referring to safety warnings at all - while I don't want to hear them - either I broke a rule or not - there is a place in the rules for it and I wouldn't argue having received one. My concern is the possible interference from being in the wrong place where I have to stop myself in order not to put the RO in a dangerous situation or for contact that an RO may not believe to be interference but typically should be. Not everyone handles it the correct way and to avoid having the offer that I SHOULD have received from being a non-starter because they called out a time or a score, I'd rather keep my options open. Before I holster, I'm going to ask, "didn't you bump me back there?" or whatever, just to be sure they don't run through the routine call outs.

Ah. Now I get it.....

I'd hate to get that inquiry while acting as an RM -- it would mean that I hadn't briefed the CROs and ROs appropriately....

[aztecdriver]

Thanks for the reminder... next time I feel that I'm interfered with I'll just call for them RM before they start to say anything...

To which my response would most likely be: The time is xx.xx, please record that and call the RM. T1, 2alpha.....

Got to keep the stage moving. Interference is at RO discretion for a reason; we want to prevent safety concerns before they occur. A reshoot isn't likely to happen.

Now, if, while others on the squad shoot, you notice the the RO has a habit of issuing warnings unneccessarily, I'd call the RM discreetly, and have a quiet chat with him. I also might ask for a different RO when my turn rolled around....

....or I'd work on mental strategies to tune him out....

Bottom line: Safety warnings are like weak-hand strings -- may not be encountered often, but you should prepare for them anyway. Would you want a friend hurt, because safety warnings were abolished, and an RO remained silent, when he could have said something? (Good luck finding willing range officers under that restriction.....)

Sorry for being short - I wasn't referring to safety warnings at all - while I don't want to hear them - either I broke a rule or not - there is a place in the rules for it and I wouldn't argue having received one. My concern is the possible interference from being in the wrong place where I have to stop myself in order not to put the RO in a dangerous situation or for contact that an RO may not believe to be interference but typically should be. Not everyone handles it the correct way and to avoid having the offer that I SHOULD have received from being a non-starter because they called out a time or a score, I'd rather keep my options open. Before I holster, I'm going to ask, "didn't you bump me back there?" or whatever, just to be sure they don't run through the routine call outs.

Ah. Now I get it.....

I'd hate to get that inquiry while acting as an RM -- it would mean that I hadn't briefed the CROs and ROs appropriately....

I'd agree... luckily, I've not had the occasion. I hope I never do.

[DarthMuffin]

Here are the 2 scenarios I am concerned may be RO interference under 8.6.4.(the portion underlined) In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence

1. Shooter is traversing a long course of fire with the RO and Scorekeeper in somewaht proper condition. RO calls out alpha-mike. Shooters noticably hesitates as if to come back to make up the mike but continues on and finishes the stage and complains at the end. Is it RO interefence when he calls Alpha-Mike and if so, does shooters stop and ask for reshoot? If RO interference, does shooter finish and ask for reshoot.

If this is the RO who is running you, I would call this interference. I would also call the RM over and see if the RO can be given a procedural for coaching. This is exactly what should happen if a spectator calls out a mike, right?

For #2, if the RO is known for doing this I would just tune out anything from him but a "STOP!". If he does stop you then it's either legit and you'll probably know it, or not and you can ask him to cite the rule. Before the stage you could maybe even ask him for no warnings, just to stop and DQ you if you break a rule.