.40AET Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 This weedend I had some real bad brain fade during a stage. I was so focused on getting my legs into the shooting box while kneeling that I skipped the first string. When I was done shooting from the kneeling position, everyone including the RO was saying, "Just shoot it again from the sitting position". What should you do as a shooter when even the RO is coaching??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Guess at a club match this might be a friendly way to let you mulligan a bad stage. If the MD is OK with that, I'd probably gladly accept the offer (if I know all other competitors, and I really know I'm not p*##@§g anybody off). In a sanctioned match (lev. II or league match) I'd politely decline the generous offer. This happened to me some three or four years ago: I was shooting a local match for a "winter league" in north Italy, and on a stage early in the morning I had the distinct impression of having a squib lodged in my barrel.I heard the squib, didn't see a hole in the target, ejected a spent brass and decided to stop there. I checked the gun, had the guy running the timer double check, then it turned out there was enough powder to expel the bullet, even if didn't make it to the target (6m away). Squad members and RO said shoot it again, since that was the very first target of the stage, but I had to refuse, since that was something more than a club match, and it was awarding prizes. What I did was shoot again the stage, outside of the match, just to get the idea of what I could have scored in that match within my possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 I didn't lay out the COF very well. 3 IPSC targets best 4 on paper and 4 steel. While sitting, engage 2 steele and 3 IPSC targets with 2 rounds each. Reload while kneeling in the box, engage 3 IPSC targets with 2 rounds each and the remaining 2 steel. I'm 6'3 and don't fit very well in a small shoot box while kneeling with out faulting. I went straight to kneeling and when I reloaded realized how stupid that was and just engaged the remaining targets while kneeling. 8 procedurals for not sitting. When I reloaded everyone was telling me to sit and shoot the remainging targets. I knew I blew it and just shot kneeling for fun and took my lumps. The coaching all had good intent. But the RO was leading the coaching. It seems everyone should just be quite. I'll take the zero and the lumps. No mulligan was offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Sounds like you screwed the satge and at a club match I would do the same thing as the RO. You can take or leave the advise, but you've already toasted the stage, so it sounds like it hurt your pride to have someone give you some friendly advise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 8 procedurals for not sitting. That's a little harsh. What's the advantage gained? I'd have given you one procedural for not following the course description. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 8 procedurals for not sitting. That's a little harsh. What's the advantage gained? I'd have given you one procedural for not following the course description. Rich I agree. This is a club level match, not he nationals. Sounds like the RO and the other shooters were trying to be nice and not hammer you too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 For a C/D class shooter at a club level match I don't see any problem with a friendly reminder here or there. But L2S is right, as the shooter you can take or leave the advice. Sound like the RO was just trying to make the match as shooter friendly as possible. I like that at a club level match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 I try to put pride aside when I'm going out to have fun. If I totally blow a stage and everyone has a laugh it's cool with me. I'll be making the jokes if it's the other way around. I felt like I would be cheating if I listened and followed everyones advice. If the concensus is at the club level a little coaching is ok then next time I'll just go with the flow. Thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 Sound like the RO was just trying to make the match as shooter friendly as possible. I like that at a club level match. I'm usually having too much fun at the local matches to care if I get a zero on a stage. Even in the rain, we all had a fun time. We all blew it on one stage, while the rest had a laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Since Vince and Troy haven't made it here yet... Coaching is against the rules. The rules apply to all levels of matches...equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Since Vince and Troy haven't made it here yet... Coaching is against the rules. The rules apply to all levels of matches...equally. You rang? I nearly missed this thread coz of all the others which jumped ahead of it. Yes, Flex is 100% correct, but what you've described sounds more like a "Training Session" to me, given that everybody including the RO were yelling advice. Does this sound about right to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I think most club level matches are training or practice. If there is no money, trophy or league involved, it is all about working on skills ( or lack there of ) . If were talking about a sectional or area match then I think we all agree that the rules must be followed 100%. But if we are at a practice match, then thats where we learn and it should be pointed out that coaching, from anyone, is not allowed. As a matter of fact, that is how I learned. I was shooting a club match and was getting some advise from the RO who was also a shooter (GM level). When we were done he was very clear to explain that at a "real" match, coaching would not be allowed so I should not expect the RO to do so because they won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Does this sound about right to you? Yep. If there is no money, trophy or league involved, it is all about working on skills ( or lack there of ) Just bragging rights, or jokes about your lack of talent. My skills just vanish on occasion. I try to treat the club matches the same as a big match. I just don't get upset if I blow it. Thanks for all of the input guys, I value everyones opinion and appreciate your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I am going to disagree 1000%. A match is a match and the rules are the rules. If you want coaching...write "coach through" across your score sheet. One shooter getting coached by a GM as he is shooting a match isn't fair to the guy two bays down that doesn't have a GM telling him how to run the stage. We all do dumb stuff from time to time. Having it show up on the scoresheet cements the lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Flex, Someone telling you how to finish a stage when you have basically zeroed it anyway isn't the same as what you described. Then again I think it is more important to be safe and have fun than to slap people with the rulebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 The questions is on coaching during the COF. There is a rule that covers this. The rule book applies to matches at all levels. A Level 1 match (local match) is a competition. Training is something else. (If a shooter wants to use a match as training, that is fine...but they still need to follow the rules.) My girlfriend shoots matches every so often. She doesn't want to come in last. Is it fair to the other shooters that might be in compeition for last place if I coach her through the stages? It's not slapping people with the rule book, it's applying the rules exactly the same for each and every shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 My girlfriend shoots matches every so often. She doesn't want to come in last. Is it fair to the other shooters that might be in compeition for last place if I coach her through the stages?It's not slapping people with the rule book, it's applying the rules exactly the same for each and every shooter. If she had already zeroed a stage and you told her how to finish it, it has no bearing on the results. That is totally different than "coaching her through the stages." My understanding in the example given, was the stage was worth 80 points and he got 8 procedurals (-80) = zero. Thus as an RO (knowing the competitor had finished the course of fire with zero points for a score score, most likely being a new shooter) would see nothing wrong with helping them "finish" the course It is just the friendly thing to do if it has no bearing on the outcome of the scores and might just help retain a new shooter but it is against the rules so the RO should have given himself a procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Flex, If anyone's GF or Wife or Neighbor or Child wants to come out and shoot and is not really in contention for a medal, I have absolutely no problem with all the coaching in the world. If more people shoot we have more people on our side of the GC issue. Once they are hooked and comfortable in our environmentthen the coaching should be reserved for practice and befrore and after action coaching, the during the COF needs to go away. Till then coach away. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 If anyone's GF or Wife or Neighbor or Child wants to come out and shoot and is not really in contention for a medal, I have absolutely no problem with all the coaching in the world. If more people shoot we have more people on our side of the GC issue. Once they are hooked and comfortable in our environmentthen the coaching should be reserved for practice and befrore and after action coaching, the during the COF needs to go away. Till then coach away. I agree with Jim. Get them in, help them become comfortable. That's how you grow an organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Some times I can't resist helping someone out. I had one guy unload and show clear in the middle of the stage. I'm standing there, totatly confused going WTF? I just couldn't resist pointing to the last array with 4 more targets. Of course the shooter goes "Oh sh?t!" and takes off running. I just can't let someone suffer 8 mikes and 4 failure to engage, that's just too mean at a local match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 TY-45641 DAMN man- A couple of things. This wasn't my first match. I hadn't zero'd the COF when the coaching started. I could have easily done what they said and had a decent, not fast, but decent score. A match is a match and the rules are the rules. The rule book applies to matches at all levels. AMEN- I should have stopped, asked for a zero on the COF, and procederal penalalty for everyone envolved, or a reshoot. I fu*cked it up, and that's it. The coaching didtn't help. I would give advice to anyone before or after a COF if they asked, but not during. I have done, and will continue to do anything to help a new shooter. I have driven them an hour to the match. Loaned out ammo and guns. Told them how to shoot a stage. Offered advice how to do it better. But during a COF, I keep quiet, all of your decisions are your own. A bad run will give you something to reflect on for the ride home. Find some way to make a better decision next time. I may not be squadded up with my buddies and a friendly RO. They ARE the best, that's why I shoot there. Respectfully, .40aet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I RO'd Sunday a shooter with a new to them pistol. I did a little coaching to help him through the multiple jams ("Drop the mag", etc). It's about discretion don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 The way some clubs help new people is very good. Last month at a club in PA I was squadded with a C class shooter, a GM, and 3 people who this was the very first time. I think for one maybe even first time firing a gun at all. Two of the guys only had 2 10 rd mags so we who were ROing ourselves through helped them by passing empty mags backwards etc, as well as giving them safety warnings and some minor help if needed. But in the end even though I DQd one of them they all were thankful for the help and I saw them all again this month. Sometimes helping is just a nice guy thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Flex is right, rules are rules and they are made to be broken Just kidding Flex. IMHO Twix has is down pretty good, coach those who need it (new shooters ect) Make SURE everything is done in a SAFE manner and have a good time with good friends As 40AET explained. Club matches are the heart and soul of our sport, we don't need to throw the rule book at our shooters but we do need to make sure they know the rules (twix/descretion) esp new shooters to our sport (maybe IDPA changeovers who don't know the rules but do know how to handle a gun) In 40AET s particular situation he did the correct thing by ignoring the well intended coaching but he did not need it and the RO who I'm sure meant well should have held his toung and lead the laughing after the Range clear command. Yes follow the rules they are there for a reason but, at certain times at club level matches coaching may be a good thing. but not in this case. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Yes follow the rules they are there for a reason but, at certain times at club level matches coaching may be a good thing. but not in this case. Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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