DougCarden Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Course design: as you walk in behind a wall to the left near 180 target, then turn around and three to the right angled, third on on the right almost the same. AS I went in I stepped into the wall to angle more towards the target, away from the 180 all three targets. RO behind me stated that I got close with my muzzle, but from where he was standing behind me(I am 6'2, he is 5'6) he wasnt behind me because I would have ran right into him when I spun around for the second array. Piss poor stage design! All shooters in my walk through had the same opinion. All he had to do was move the targets 2 ft to the berm to change the angle. He is the club president and does this crap from time to time. I am willing to admit when I screw up, but I know that I DID not in this stage, I had my freaking finger on the frame away from the trigger until I could almost put contact wounds on the target, and he couldnt see me anyway! Frustrating when I asked him to show me what I did, from where I was and he couldnt!, just stating that I was really close and going on and on about it. Rant mode off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Doug --- good rant! Whenever I get the RO telling me "you got close to the 180 back there" I give 'em the same response: "if I broke the 180, DQ me, if I didn't break the 180 then I don't give a hoot how *close* I came"! Unless you are getting a re-shoot on that stage, why bother telling the shooter "how close he came" after the fact? Especially on such a poorly designed stage as the one you described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 I had someone at the 99 Golden Gate give me some lip after I warned him about pushing the 180. What I really wanted to say was, "Well what I'm trying to say is, I think you broke the 180 and I should have stopped you and disqualified you for it. However, I'm not absolutely sure you went past 180, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. Have a nice day and enjoy the rest of the match. Feel free to again ride the 180 despite the fact all our targets are against the back berms. I'm sure your high degree of skill will continue to let you run on the razor edge of safety and neither you nor the other range officers will make even a half-degree error in judgement." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Well.. it is nice at local matches to help the new shooters out as in "did you know how close to the 180 you were there?", but at a big match, what's the point? I got threatened with an ex-post-facto 180 DQ at Area 4 years ago as in "If you demand a reshoot for that, I'll DQ you for breaking the 180 back there". I didn't know any better at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 Erik --- so why didn't you tell the guy what you really wanted to say? Seems to me that you wouldn't have gotten any lip from a grateful shooter. In the stage described by Doug everybody would have been close to breaking the 180 and could have received the same comment from the RO. Unless all the remaining stages have the same trap, what is the purpose of informing the shooter after the fact? Being an RO for many years, I have never given any lip to another RO who interjects the "close to 180" on a stage design like this, rather I gently chide him that *if* I allowed my muzzle to point rearwards *further* than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, then I deserve to be DQ'd; if I was close, well, so what? I would never ask any RO to compromise on safety, bad course design like this frequently puts the RO in the position of having to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter in spite of what the RO believes is in fact a safety violation worthy of a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 I ran a young shooter (12 yo) at a stage that had one of those 180 traps...target to your right as you enter a doorway. (Was subbing for the RO as he had just shot and was reloading.) I did mention it to him as he was new, but did not make the same comment to the other experienced shooters when they came through. Virtually all of us saw it on the walk through. When I get told that, i just say "thanks" and move on! I can share the annoyance of DougC. The one I like is being told my finger was almost on the trigger during a reload. Nice since i have my pistol inverted so he had to be under the gun and laying on the ground.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Hemphill Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 This past weekend I shot a stage where the range master said "There are two targets close to the 180. I put them up to slow you fast guys down and think." My question was and still is why? I shot them both long before the 180 was an issue, but a new shooter could easily get a dq. What is the point in designing a stage in this way? I have seen this happen at many matches and it really drives me up the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 "I put them up to slow you fast guys down and think" This is a pet peeve with me. It is a DQ for new shooter trap. NEW'S FLASH. The fast guys aim. They don't use the force. They are just better. Boy do I feel better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 We don't put up with that kind of stage design. (Partly because we can't, and partly because, as it was said, "it's a new shooter DQ trap.") The MD walks the stages before shooting and gets the walkthrough from the RO/Stage designer. If anything is off, the MD changes it there and then. (We wrangle gamey long-time shooters into being MD, they scope and game it all.) I had a stage designer get irate that I changed his clamshell last target of a stage to a partial from a total disappear. I told him I wasn't going to get tangled up in an argument and arbitration over FTE because someone figured out they could save a bunch of time and ignore the disappearing target. Some people want to win, and will do what it takes. Others will do what it takes to make the supposed winners stumble. As MD or club President its your job to rein both groups in a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 I've had people tell me I came close to the 180. My reply has always been, "Oh wow, thanks for pointing that out. I'll watch that in the future." And I'm totally serious. They're happy; I'm happy; everyone's happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 8, 2002 Share Posted September 8, 2002 I've been known to get really lippy on this subject - my response is always "If I broke it, DQ me - otherwise, just shut up and score the targets" I also absolutely positively HATE the RO "yelling" at me while I'm shooting - if my muzzle is a problem, stop me and send me home, otherwise, just STFU and let me shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 Look at the bright side I shoot at IDPA clubs that has targets past the 180 all the time. There's no 180 rule and that's fine; problem is these stages are on standard pistol bays. I'm sorry but 180 degree shooting is for 360 degree ranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 I'm gonna change gears from the 180 stuff. What gets me are stages that have more than eight shots from any one shooting position...at a Major Match. (I pity the Production shooters.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 Down with target arrays!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 Down with target arrays!!! Well, shoot 4 hear...go over there and shoot those 4...and so on... That is boring. How about well designed stages with multiple target exposures and choices. I certainly think big matches ought to follow the rule book on stage design...and be fun and creative! (Edited by Flexmoney at 10:29 pm on Sep. 9, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 You betcha, Flex! I just get torqued at folks slapping up four targets where there only ought to be one or two -- just to pump up the round count. It's just getting silly. Every freakin' course is 26, 28, 32 rounds. Why? Because we can... E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 Erik W and David and I discussed this at the Nationals! There, we had one or two targets at most - the only really big array was ALL swingers!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 E, Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted September 10, 2002 Share Posted September 10, 2002 A warning is information (use it), and if your fragile ego can't handle than you should take a chill pill, or grow up. Yes target arrays are yucky, and boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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