Is the 650 really the right press?

[bforrest]

I have spent a good bit of time over the last week trying to answer the common question of Hornady vs Dillon for a progressive press. There are obviously as many emotional responses to that as Budweiser vs Miller or Ford vs Chevy. I have been reloading for about 20 years, so I am not a newcomer to this discussion. Up to this point though almost all of my experience is on a single stage press with about 95% being high power rifle cartridges. I have done some pistol reloading on it, but more for custom ammo than bulk quantities. I’ve debated going to a progressive many times, but decided now is the time. I initially assumed I would be buying a Dillon and spent quite a bit of time learning the catalog and components. I was sold on the 650 with case feeder until I saw a Hornady Lock N Load ammo plant with case feeder and bullet feeder complete package and still a significant cost savings over the 650.

I am looking for a progressive that will be used to load: 9mm, 357sig, 40, 45acp, and some 223 and 300 blackout. I’ll leave the other rifle cartridges and larger pistol on my single stage. So the time it takes to swap cartridge/priming sizes is a concern for me. If all I shot was 40 S&W, never needed to make a change to a press, and turn out thousands of cartridges I think the 650 would be the right choice. But I expect this press to be able to easily adjust between any of the cartridges and primer sizes listed above.

A difference of a couple hundred bucks up front are easily justified in that I plan on keeping either press for many years. Where I keep getting hung up is the part of getting less features in the Dillon for more money, and as I add more calibers to the press the Dillon becomes a larger investment. As I price out the Dillon with case feeder, case feeder plates, tool heads, caliber conversions (4 pistol plus 223), mount, primer tubes, bullet tray, quick change priming assemblies, powder check) I end up around $1700. For the Hornady with same number of calibers and the LNL AP package I end up around $1400, plus 500 free Hornady bullets. The $300 difference I could justify with the overwhelming positive responses from Dillon users, and the 500 free bullets will easily be forgotten over the life of the press. But with the Hornady I also get the bullet feeder, an arguably better powder measure, quicker caliber changes, quicker priming size changes, a smoother indexing system and same lifetime warranty. I know this sounds like leaning towards the Hornady, but really trying to understand what am I missing in this debate.

From what I can sum up from Dillon

Dillon historically has made the best progressive press. Most competition shooters use Dillon. Dillon has great customer service. The 650 is a workhorse of a press that is capable of years of service spitting out thousands of rounds. The 650 is also a 20 year old model that really hasn’t been updated. The only good reason a design is never or changed over time is that it is perfect. Obviously the 650 is not perfect due to the number of ‘aftermarket’ parts that were home grown as needed and not incorporated into current Dillon production. Also the number of ‘upgrades’ that Dillon charges for that could be seen as improvements to a design that should be included in new presses. For example the process of changing from large to small primer on a 650 seems much more complicated and time consuming than on the Hornady, but instead of redesigning the part, they will charge $162 to upgrade to the ‘quick change priming assemblies.’ So many responses to the question of difficulty in changing caliber/priming size on the 650 are answered with “I have 2 650’s, one for small primer and one for large.” That response shows the persons love for Blue in spite of the core design issue that makes it too difficult to change. Why would I want two machines unless it is too much of a pain in the rear to change caliber? I won’t be cranking on two machines at the same time, so seems like a waste of money and space for convenience. The powder measure also seems to be lacking some flexibility with the number of discussions around which powders work well in the press. I know I am comparing apples to oranges, but on my old rcbs single stage I could not imagine choosing a rifle powder on what my press likes. I want to be able to shoot any powder that either provides best performance in the firearm or most economical powder to plink with. The 650 also seems to be somewhat touchy with accidental primer tube ignition. From what I gather Dillon recommends the CCI due to the thicker metal on the primer to avoid detonation. I haven’t heard of any of the Hornady users having an entire tube of primers igniting. Again, I would want to shoot any brand primer I would find for the load I am using, not based on what my press likes.

For the Hornady...

The Hornady seems to at least been updated based on customer feedback. It is difficult to filter through the online forum feedback when the typical answer to the debate is “I tried a hornady 10 years ago and didn’t like it, bought a Dillon and have 10 million rounds through it and love it.” That answer doesn’t really help since the hornady has been updated seemingly in 2009 at latest. There are many posts describing the out of the box issues with the hornady needing adjustments or polishing. To spend this much on a press setup, I don’t feel I should take a new product out of the box and have to polish, sand or file it to make it operate correctly. The indexing system with the half turn on each stroke of the handle seems to be a smoother operating machine. Also, the priming system seems to be easier to change and more dependable as long as it is clean and gone through the initial tweaking. I have also never heard of a story of a hornady user detonating the entire primer stack in the way that I know has happened to some users of the 650. Also, the Hornady does not seem to push a primer onto the shellplate if there is no case in the station.

I am not trying to spark a debate or end a debate, I am just looking for feedback in trying to find the best progressive press to fit my needs and that will last. They both seem to have pluses and minuses, but also have a wide difference in price and features.

[Sarge]

As I price out the Dillon with case feeder, case feeder plates, tool heads, caliber conversions (4 pistol plus 223), mount, primer tubes, bullet tray, quick change priming assemblies, powder check) I end up around $1700. For the Hornady with same number of calibers and the LNL AP package I end up around $1400, plus 500 free Hornady bullets. Many of the guys here go through 500 rounds in less than a week so that is not even a factor to them. The free bullets are not even a factor to me and I only shoot about 7500 rounds a year. But with the Hornady I also get the bullet feeder, If I have read and understood right, one drawback to the Hornady bullet feeder is that it runs all the time because it does not have an interrupter like the Kiss or Mr Bulletfeeder. I would think the constant noise would get old. Some people mod the unit by putting covers over them to quiet them down.

From what I can sum up from Dillon

Dillon historically has made the best progressive press. Most competition shooters use Dillon. Dillon has great customer service. The no BS warranty is what sold me on Dillon. I don't know if the other companies have the same policy but Dillon Customer Service is not just great, it is legendary. The 650 also seems to be somewhat touchy with accidental primer tube ignition. This problem is easily misunderstood. The operator does not accidentally blow up a primer tube per say. The operator makes the mistake of trying to force a primer, or whatever and sets that primer off. The reason the tube "may" go as well is due to the proximity to the exploding primer. Is it a design flaw? yes. But it is often operator error that amplifies it.

Also, the Hornady does not seem to push a primer onto the shellplate if there is no case in the station. Even though the 650 does not have this feature it does have a mechanism for catching live primers that have made it onto the plate. Primer indexing can also be disabled relatively easily.

I am not trying to spark a debate or end a debate, I am just looking for feedback in trying to find the best progressive press to fit my needs and that will last. They both seem to have pluses and minuses, but also have a wide difference in price and features. With all the money you have tied up in guns and shooting stuff the $400 difference seems relatively minor.

As you can tell I am a Dillon user. I have looked at the LNL in shops and it does seem like a worthy adversary to the Dillon line. I doubt seriously if you could go wrong with either.

[raysracer]

I've been a Dillon user for a year now. I had the same concerns. I was swayed toward blue by my friends but also by the sheer number of guys on the forums who speak up about their experience with Dillon. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I don't find as much discussion of the other presses as I see with blue.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2

[warpspeed]

I'd get a Dillon 550 before I bought a Hornady.

I started on a 1050 because that is what my buddy has. He gave me a 550 to use at my place for everything but 9mm because that is what the 1050 is set up for.

I eventually got a 1050 in 223.

I use a SL900 for shotgun shells now and it is basically a 650 in 12 ga. I like it.

When I have bought presses, I have bought the Dillon and have not been disappointed. If they had a single stage press I'd buy one of them too.

[xdnok]

Most of the time I tend to not be a Lemming but sometimes the Lemmings are on to something and in this case the sheer number of people using a Dillion really says A LOT about the product, it just plain works. With all the resources and goodies available for Dillions you do get to just make large quantities of good ammo with minimal hassle. I run a 650 and a 550 for convenience and have to agree the small/large primer change out issue is a pain but after getting the process down it's tolerable. Most of the guys I know that run multiple machines do it just because time is in short supply and well............... it's kinda cool just to sit down in front of a machine and go to work.

[Cotys]

I have a buddy going through the same decision process. He's looking at LnL due to the price. I've looked at them a lot. Two weeks ago I took my step-dad to his local indoor range. He wanted to shoot some WWII bring home pistols. I handled some Hornadys in the ranges' shop.

The funny thing, all they sold was Hornady, I talked to their gunsmith and ammunition mfg for the range. In the back, he uses two Dillon 1050s to load all the ammo they sale. That is very telling in itself. He said he had a 1050 and a 650, sold the 650 and added the second 1050.

The Hornady could meet a lot of people's need. The price is right. It seems similar to buying shop tools. Hornady is the residential toolset for the tinkerer, Dillon is more the professional grade. One friend always says, "It only costs a nickle more to go first class." That must have been before inflation.

One bonus I don't think you find with the Hornady is the level of support that Dillon has. Brian Enos and this forum are an excellent resource also.

[Shadowrider]

The $300 difference I could justify with the overwhelming positive responses from Dillon users, and the 500 free bullets will easily be forgotten over the life of the press. But with the Hornady I also get the bullet feeder, an arguably better powder measure, quicker caliber changes, quicker priming size changes, a smoother indexing system and same lifetime warranty. I know this sounds like leaning towards the Hornady, but really trying to understand what am I missing in this debate.

This is exactly why I went with the LNL. But when I did it, it was 1000 free bullets and they were 230gr .45 XTPs for me.

But after ordering the casefeeder and seeing how cheaply made it was I was really disappointed. I installed it anyway and it dropped as much brass on my head as it did down the tube. I was also having issues seating large pistol primers below flush and having to bump them in 3 and 4 times and still not getting them seated. So I boxed it all up and sold it. Ordered a 650 from Brian with all the goodies and couldn't be happier. There are a couple of features that I miss on the Hornady and the powder measure is one of them and it's excellent, but I absolutely LOVE my 650. I never could say that about the Hornady. I'm also a good bit faster on the Dillon. I've obtained another Hornady powder measure and I'm going to rig it up for the 650 when I get around to it. And caliber changeovers aren't really any more involved than the Hornady.

Get the 650, you'll end up money ahead in the long run. Been there, done it, got the t-shirt. If you shoot alot I promise you will have a Dillon at some point.

[Babaganoosh]

You will not find a non biased opinion when it comes to Dillon products on this forum.

immediatly discount anything people are saying about the 1050 when it comes to this particular post because you are talking about a 650. The 1050 and the 650 are different animals.

I have a hornady, my cousin has a dillon. We both make quality ammo. There are some things on the dillon that are better, there are some things on the hornady that are better. I have the bulletfeeder on mine and like it. He wants to add a bulletfeeder to his after using mine.

They are both quality machines, figure out whats best for you and buy it. Unless you get a lemon you will be happy with whichever you end up with.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Babaganoosh

[Turnpike]

My first progressive in the early 1990s was a Hornady Projector (pre LNL). It definitely increased production. The price was right. When I picked up my first machine gun I determined Dillon powder check was an import feature. After a call to Dillon the 650 was on it's way. I loaded on that press (everything except low round count center fire rifle) until the beginning of 2012. I did a lot of research focusing on the 300 AAC Blackout and converting them from 223/556. This would give me a nearly endless supply of brass and I intended shooting mostly handloads and not wanting to buy brass. I had used a single stage to start the process. When it came to trimming I did a lot of research. Once I added in the need to remove the primer crimp it was clear the 1050 was the best choice fof speed and efficency. I have finished prepping about 900 Blackout cases. I am ready to finally start working up a load for it.

My point is the Hornady runs a great price. I am not sure about the quality of the extras, but the press looks good. If I were doing it all over again I would have made the 650 my first press in the 1990s because I did not need the high volume trimming (mostly pistol) and I did not need the crimp remover (I did buy Dillon's super swage later). I would recommend the 650 with case feeder and not look back.

Mike

[98sr20ve]

I have owned in this order.

Lee Classic Turret

Load Master

550

LnL

650

and another Lee Classic Turret.

I would never buy another Load Master of LnL. 650 is a great press. LnL seems to have some great features but in the end we don't buy a press for the features, we want a press that works. LnL with a casefeeder is a troublesome, cheaply made, poorly engineered press compared to the 650. Hornady tried for 6 months to get my press to work. Rebuilt it with a custom tune even. It still is not 1/2 as good as a 650. Did you know that HUGE LnL ram is hollow and really thin? It flex's when you push to primer. Primer punch does not have enough stroke as well. Casefeeder is cheaply made. Slider is a PITA with glock brass. It does not have unique parts to each caliber so some are just finicky as a result. I could go on and on. Get the 650.

[Shadowrider]

Did you know that HUGE LnL ram is hollow and really thin? It flex's when you push to primer. Primer punch does not have enough stroke as well. Casefeeder is cheaply made. Slider is a PITA with glock brass. It does not have unique parts to each caliber so some are just finicky as a result. I could go on and on. Get the 650.

My LNL had plenty of priming stroke, the primer seating punch would go well up into to the primer pocket on an unprimed case. The problem with mine particular press was the "flex" you mention. When seating a primer, because that ram is so large with those monster sized links spaced so wide apart, the entire ram assembly, compound links, ram, handle, everything would just "deflect" away from the priming force and rotate around the axis of the ram. I give them credit for trying but I knew they were fighting a losing battle with what looks to me like an obvious design flaw. Yes they could have replaced the press, but how long would it be before a new one wore enough to do the same thing. Add in the ultra cheaply made case feeder and I knew that Dillon was my answer.

[benos]

I can't remember the number of LnL owners who have said to me on the phone (almost word for word every time), "It's a pretty good press, but I never stop fiddling with its priming system. So I am going to sell it and buy a 650."

be

[wes777]

I have a buddy who is on barf.com who swears by the LNL. Really good guy who thinks I am a cool aid drinking square. He has a 650 also. Big secret. The LNL is a great press. Do you enjoy reloading or are you here to pump out premium ammo so that you can facilitate increasing your game? If you are, get the 650 from Brian with all of the toys. Call lee over at unique tek for all the upgrades you will need to be rolling the way you want to from day one. Every time I have to sit down and reload so that I can indulge my addiction, I am glad that I spent my money with BE.

[3gunnah]

I have a couple of 650's would not sell or trade. A friend bought a LNL and only used it once. Also I think The Hornady powder system looks like it could be made to work on a Dillon 650 with some tweakin.

[acekc]

I currently have both a 650 and a LnL AP. Both have the case feeder, the Hornady has the bullet feeder as well. I posted an extensive summary of my thoughts on this matter in another thread so I'll direct you to that instead of repeating myself:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=146826&view=findpost&p=1646592

A few other thoughts based on your comments above:

- Yes, caliber changes cost more on the Dillon, but at least some of the costs you listed apply to the Hornady as well (case feeder, case feeder plates, additional primer tubes), some are partially offset by corresponding costs on the Hornady (i.e. several LnL bushings per caliber instead of a Dillon toolhead) and some shouldn't be included in a comparison because they provide features not available on the Hornady (strong mount, bullet tray, powder check).

- I would argue strongly that once you involve the case feeder, caliber changes on the Hornady are most certainly not quicker. The reason that Dillon caliber changes cost more is that the case feeder parts are tailored to each caliber and require zero adjustment. I'm going from memory but swapping the orientation of a part when going from pistol to rifle and a simple adjustment to the stage two locator are all that's required on the Dillon. Because the Hornady uses a small number of parts at each location to cover all calibers, caliber changes require a lot of monkeying around on the Hornady; trying different parts, adjusting the parts, etc. Even then I find that it's not uncommon(especially with case feeder V-blocks) to find a situation where there IS no obvious good choice among the available parts that provides reliable operation for a particular caliber.

- You mention $162 for the primer quick change but I think that you only have to buy one @ $81 to be able to swap since the press comes with both small and large primer parts. I think you just take your unused primer parts, install them into the $81 assembly and wind up with two complete assemblies. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, I only load small primers on my 650 right now.

- After using a LnL the 650's system of chucking unused primers aside is annoying. The LnL does feed the primer to the shellplate if there is no round present, but if no case is primed it just pulls it back and sticks the same primer out there again until it gets used. All is not rosy with the LnL primer system however - the area under the primer seater gets clogged with debris easily, jamming the press when it tried to index and sometimes forcing you to remove the seater assembly from the press entirely and disassemble it to clean it. Over time the bottom of the seater digs a hole into the frame of the press and will eventually result in high primers unless you use a piece of metal like a washer to keep the bottom of the seater out of the hole.

- With some polishing compounds and a little TLC the Dillon powder measures can be made to throw very consistently in my experience. I used a scale with 0.02gr resolution and I've seen as little as +/- 0.06gr variance with pistol loads.

- Since getting the Dillon I'm seeing the point of the bullet feeder less and less. Even with a bullet feeder I want to visually inspect the powder level before the bullet drops, so I'm pausing between handle pulls to look in each case. With the bullet tray for the 650 I can grab a bullet as I'm pulling the handle and plop it on the case without really pausing any longer than I would to look at the powder level. Meanwhile the bullet feeder is loud, never shuts off and requires fiddling that significantly increases the time for caliber changes.

After I bought my LnL but before I got the Dillon, I used to look at things the same way it sounds like you're looking at them now. I looked at the features, cost, etc. of the Hornady vs. the Dillon, looked at the Dillon annoyances that people complained about (spent primers flipping on the floor, feeding primers with or without a case, etc.) and scratched my head and said "I don't get it." Now that I have the 650 I get it - I have far fewer stoppages with the 650 than I ever had with the LnL, and the ones I do have are almost certainly due to my bench needing to be shored up better. I still have the LnL and don't plan on getting rid of it, but I would much rather load on the 650.

[benos]

acekc,

Everything you said echos the LnL comments I've heard from customers over the years. To a T.

And yes, the 650's Priming Quick-change assembly is $81, not double that.

be

[mizer67]

After I bought my LnL but before I got the Dillon, I used to look at things the same way it sounds like you're looking at them now. I looked at the features, cost, etc. of the Hornady vs. the Dillon, looked at the Dillon annoyances that people complained about (spent primers flipping on the floor, feeding primers with or without a case, etc.) and scratched my head and said "I don't get it." Now that I have the 650 I get it - I have far fewer stoppages with the 650 than I ever had with the LnL. I still have the LnL and don't plan on getting rid of it, but I would much rather load on the 650.

This fit me to a T, before I got a 650.

Still have the LNL, but haven't used it since I got the 650 and I don't shoot my other calibers that I don't have 650 parts for yet, just because I don't want to reload them on the LNL.

I did transfer over my LNL powder measure though. I wasn't using the powder check station and am very pleased with it.

[98sr20ve]

Hornady gave me my money back. I love loading on my 650. LnL just was never even as good as my 550. Antoindexing isn't everything.

[ScottyPotty]

I hate to just follow people and wanted to prove they were wrong. So I bought a lee load master. It was bad! I had to hand prime everything and every 100 rounds I had to stop and re-adjust something. I got so fed-up I just sold the press and didnt even replace it with anything for a long time. I then had to make the same decision your facing now. Blue or Red? When I compared prices and sorted through all the crap to find out needs vrs wants. I even made a excel spreed sheet of all the parts. The prices of the two press are pretty close (I cant remember exactly but it was around $150.00)

Its tough because unless you know someone you just cant go to the store and check over the Dillon's. I ended up finding a used 650 with goodies on craigs list and went blue. I figured if it doesnt work out Ill sell it and get the LNL. I still have it and it runs great, it does take a little set up but once you get used to it and dialed in you dont have to fiddle with things, it just runs and runs cranking out ammo like mad. I'm a happy Dillon customer, they are not perfect like some may think. I do believe its time for some up-grades from them. The primer advance/ramp thing is annoying, but easily disabled and the old primers like to jump out of the cup sometimes.

It seems like the more money you want to spend on Dillon parts the easier the change overs are - powder bars, tool heads, powder measures, large & small primer assy and other parts add to the cost but are not needed if money is tight. Also many of the conversion parts are interchangeable so you dont need a conversion kit for each caliber. Like your .357 sig and .40 probably use most of the same parts so you dont have to buy a complete conversion kit.

I have been so happy with the 650 I bought another one just because it was a deal. Sharing tool heads, parts and case feeder make it super easy to switch over. Good luck!

Edited April 29, 2012 by ScottyPotty

[98sr20ve]

Put a clear piece of tube over the end of the ski ramp. The tube keeps them from falling off.

[Scootertheshooter]

Which press? I don't know , but I do know you can't go wrong with blue.

[xdmreg]

I first bought a Hornady LNL press. My first thought was I liked the idea of the quick caliber change over and I think the powder measurement system with the micro adjustment was a better design. Once I assembled the LNL press I could not get the cases to advance to the next station completely. It would not advance to the next station and it kept on sticking halfway between stations. The LNL uses small indentiations on the shell plate and a ball bearing. The bearing needs to catch on to and lock in the shellplate indent which it seldom did and would not advance correctly. I called Hornady customer service and was on hold for more than 30 minutes and the agent still could not figure it out. I kept on calling them for different issues each time I was on hold for at least 30 minutes. I also had an issue with the casefeeder as the LNL uses different metal feet attachments. I could not get the case to completely feed into station one. I kept on fiddling it and finally got fed up and returned the press. I am glad I bought it at Cabelas and they returned it no questions asked. The next day I called Brian, great guy, he knows Dilion presses inside and out. I bought a 650 and never had a problem with it. Buy a Dillion it might be a little more but it was worth it.

Edited May 9, 2012 by xdmreg