Leupold or Acog for 3G'n

[Sterling White]

I am currently running a leupold 1.5x5 on my AR with pretty good success but would like to get some other ideas. Who's running what and why? I've looked at the acogs but just haven't made the jump....even the contingency program is alluring but I just keep holding onto the wallet.

[George]

I just made the jump to an ACOG (JP-TA01) from a Leupold 3-9x and the field of view and range of eye relief is outstanding compared to the Leupold (which I thought was great already). I really didn’t believe anything was gonna be a whole lot better than my old Leupold, but the ACOG was eye-opening to say the least as far as the ability to spend time behind it and acquire the zone quickly.

I would have gone the low powered variable route if I wasn’t shooting open, but with a secondary dot sight (JPoint) on the handguard, the fixed magnification of the ACOG is fine. If I were gonna compete in Tactical division, I might have gone the CQT, or 1.5-5x route like you already have. If I could only have one optic, I would go with a low-powered variable with as wide a field of view as possible.

IMHO, what you have already is a pretty darned good piece of glass and a fixed 3.5 or 4x may not be any better for you, then again, who knows. Some folks can hose with an ACOG using the occluded eye routine, but I am glad I have the dot on the handguard for close & fast.

--

Regards,

[Religious Shooter]

I have two scopes that I run on two uppers:

IOR Valdada 1.1-4X with the CQB Recticle (bought first) -

+ Overall I like the reticle

.......- No daytime BAC capability (i.e. recticle doesn't light up during the day)

.......+ 1 MOA center dot is good for the 300 yard targets

.......+ Mil spaced ladder is cool (for 300 yd targets just bracket it between the 1 MOA center dot and the first line)

.......+ Horizontal lines help you see if you are parralel to the horizon

.......+ Big horseshoe good for close targets

+ SMMG legal in Tactical

- Glass is yellowish and not bright. (My $40 BSA was brighter )

- Heavy (almost 1 lb)

- Battery housing can (though rarely) obscure targets from your peripheral vision

- Adjustment Knobs don't have numbers

- Power Know is hard to turn

Trijicon Accupoint 1.25-4X -

+ The reticle is OK

.......- Really sucks eggs at 300 yd targets

.........- With a 50 yard zero, the reticle obscures an 8" target at 300 yards (I need to experiment with a 300 yard zero as a general purpose zero with a 6 - O Clock hold)

.........- No hash or mil dot lines for holdover

.........+++ Daytime BAC (i.e. reticle lights up during the day)

- Not SMM3G legal in Tactical

+ Glass is bright

+ Relatively light in weight

+ No battery housing to clutter up the peripheral view around the scope

+ Better eye-relief range than IOR (IMHO)

+ Adjustment Knobs have numbers

+ Power knob is really easy to turn

+ Uses tritium for illumination of reticle for nightime (Can double as a good WSHTF optic - IMHO)

Overall I prefer the Accupoint over the IOR. But if the IOR had had daytime BAC I wouldn't have given the Accupoint a try. I really dig BAC.

[Zak Smith]

TA11, donut reticle. The fiber-optic BAC feature makes target acquisition really fast, and the reticle is precise enough for any shot you'll find in 3Gun. It was murder on the long-range targets at SMM3G this year.

Even though the BDC is calibrated for M193, it's within 6" at 400 yards shooting 75gr BH.

-z

[rifleguy]

I also own both the AccuPoint, the IOR 1.1 - 4 and an Acog TA-11 with the chevron.

I like the eye relief on the AccuPoint, but little else. The reticle is useless on targets that require holdover. 2 vertical lines come up from the bottom of the reticle (containing the fiber optics) and obscure your vision. It is fairly light, 9 - 10 ounces, but it is a 1 inch tube. The glass is slightly blurry around the edges, which probably means it was not fully polished. This is typical of most scopes which come from Hakko of Japan which manufactures this for Trijicon. I would give this a much better rating if they did something with the fiber optics lines and went to a 30 mm tube.

The IOR has worked very well for me to date. It is a medium size scope weighing 15 ounces. The glass is extremely clear and bright. The horseshoe is very quick on close in target acquisition. I am not thrilled with the mil line hash marks that are used for holdover. I would prefer BDC style holdover lines calibrated to a particular bullet weight similiar to the Acogs.

The TA-11 is also a medium size scope weighing 14 ounces. It works great for me with intermediate to distant targets. I have trouble with close in stuff transitioning from target to target becaused of the fixed power. I face this issue with any fixed power scope. I would prefer a variable power setup in this scope package, but I know that is not going to happen. The glass is clear and bright with the ability to tone down the brightness of the reticle by covering the fiber optics.

I still am searching for the perfect general purpose short to intermediate variable power scope. Night Force is coming out with a 1-4 very soon, with around a $1000-1100 price tag, but they missed the boat on reticles. It will have the option of a mil style reticle and something similiar to the Leupold CQT dot / circle combination with a few more lines thrown in. They could have learned from the mistakes of the products on the market and taken the market over, but their reticles choices are not as good as the current available products.

I used a Leupold CQ/T previously and discarded it. The reticle is a dot / circle combination which has no lines for holdover giving it limited utility. The objective is 14 mm, giving it a miniscule field of view. It is big, close to the same size as the acog and ior, you would have thought it would have been made with a decent objective size.

All in all, my personal favorites in the short to medium range scopes currently available are the Acog Ta-11 and the Valdada 1.1-4.

[xsrdx]

Sterling,

There are a few good threads on this forum regarding 3 Gun optics, it would be worth a search, if you have a few minutes.

Having said that, I've used and appreciate both the donut TA11 and 1.5-5x (illuminated-duplex) Leupold. I'm assuming you're talking single optic, for Tactical.

If you're comfortable making close shots with the TA11, it's the way to go. In a match with lots of 100yd+ targets, it's probably the best compromise between speed & magnification. It's certainly a very popular scope with top shooters, in both the donut and chevron reticle. Great glass, BAC, useful illuminated ranging reticle, and super tough. For medium range targets, 75-400yd, it's probably the best 556mm scope on the planet.

I switched to the Leupold 1.5-5 though, primarily because most of the matches I shoot involve a LOT of close up targets that are just easier to get through on the low power. If I have a few long shots, I can dial up 3 or 4x quickly and get good results. It's a durable scope, with nice glass, good eye relief, and a 30mm tube. Leupold also has some new reticles for the VXIII scopes now, IIRC.

The key here might be practice - if you can shoot enough to get comfortable with the TA11 inside 25yd, it's a tough scope to beat.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend either one, but for the majority of targets in most 3 gun matches, for me the VXIII is slightly faster.

-Craig

[davidwiz]

Here is the listing for optical sights for rifles. I have a TA-11 (donut reticle) and find it quite easy to use. It does take some getting used to the both-eyes open shooting concept, but it works. If you can get used to it, then you can hose the close targets (I'm still getting used to it), no offset iron or optical sight needed. It has plenty of magnification for the long shots, and the donut reticle is good for percise shots. Not to mention that the ACOGs are rugged as heck, with Force Recon Marines using their TA01NSN ACOGs sometimes as hammers to drive tent stakes into the ground.

A friend of mine just got the Leupold MK4 CQ/T and he seems happy with it. I haven't shot it, so I can't make any comparisions btwn the two.

What ever optic you do choose, I would strongly recommend that you get some sort of cover for it, or at the very least lense covers. The ScopeCoat works very well, and Trijicon makes rubber lense caps for the 4x32 ACOGs.

The Grocery Clerks are calling, so I have to get back.

-David

[Bronco]

I've been using a ACOG TA01NSN for almost 4 years now and like it very well, just did put a short range iron sight on the handguard that helps on the close up stuff which I have trouble going fast on. Which brings me to the 2.5 X 8 Leupold on a 22LR upper that I use for practice on close range stages. Have found the Leupold for me is faster and easier to keep both eyes open on the close stuff. Think I'll fix up this scope with a new retical and try it in competition. Have also looked at the Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 3X9X36 mil dot, might be a good choice. LOL Keith

[benny hill]

What you need, a large field of view, about 80 ft. @ 100 yds., Bright glass, focus at 3 ft. or 300 yds, & light weight @ 10 oz.,& shock proff. The only scope that meet's all of the above is the simmon's shotgun scope. 1.5 x 5. No paralex.

[Sterling White]

Benny, is that the scope of choice for your AR? Simmons is a relative inexpensive scope manufacturer and I've never considered them because their products are usually known as "low-end"....are my thoughts wrong?

Everyone - thanks for the input...keep the thoughts coming!

A tid-bit of info.....practice is something that I try to do often but not enough (3000 rds since march) in most positions except weak hand. Have learned a valuable lesson after 3G Nats this year...that stage just sucked and so did my time to complete it! The gun: JP AR - 18" med wt. w/ a BC comp, leupold on top, and an iron sight mounted on the right side in front.

[warpspeed]

I really like my Accupoint. My friend has the double scope set -up and it seems more hassle than its workth, at least to me. On the other side, he usually kicks my ass , but I think that has more to do with his skill than equipment.

[benny hill]

Have been useing it for 2/3 tears now.

[benny hill]

that's year's I have been useing it.

[rishii]

Benny

a quick question for you regarding the simmons scope, does the point of impact change as you go from 1.5 to 5 power.

Thanks

[benny hill]

No point of empact change from 1.5x5. I have done well w/ it at hoser stages & long range.

[EricW]

Benny,

Is your Simmons the one with the funny "Pro Diamond" Reticle?

[Sterling White]

I've used the lower duplex reticle to get different points of impact at different distances..much like a range finder..for example: on 3 power I can use the top of the lower post at 500yd, providing there's no wind. Has anyone else played with this?

[oddjob]

I have a Bausch & Lomb 1.5 x 5. Its never been above 3x for any 3 gun match. I also use the top of the bottom post (post on the bottom of the flasher) for a 300 yd shot. Haven't checked for a 500 yd shot though.

[benny hill]

that's the one. on 5x the bottom of the diamond is right on at 500 yds.

[kellyn]

I've competed with ACOG TA11, IOR 1.1-4X, and the Leupold 1.5-5X. You're not going to gain anything by giving up your Leupold 1.5-5X. All are nice scopes and anyone of them could be used to win anyhting 3 gun match, except the Leupold is not Mystery Mountain tactical legal, despite the fact that it has actually been used by military and police forces.

[davidwiz]

To add to this, the US Optics SN-4 and SN-12 are also good choices. MSRP on the USO scopes are comparable to the Trijicon TA-11, but the street price on the TA-11 is hundreds less. Don't know what the street price is on the USOs.

[Sterling White]

except the Leupold is not Mystery Mountain tactical legal

why?

[kellyn]

Don't ask me. It's a STUPID rule. the dumbest in 3 Gun. It's basis lies in the old SOF rules wherein only approved scopes which met some sort of mysterious requirement of being duty worthy were allowed in the match. Colt 4X scope? Good to go. CMore AR sight? Good to go. Leupold 1.5-5X? Nope.

This despite the fact that the Leupold has been used by military units and I am not aware of the Colt 4X ever being used as such, although I'm sure it has been. I love the idea of comparing a Colt 4X to a Leupold 1.5-5X and saying "yes, this is a rugged tough manly ready for war" optic and the Leupold is not. Sure. The CMore tougher than a Leupold 1.5-5X? Sure it is.

How about allowing any one optic? Too simple and makes too much sense.

FYI Benny's Simmons is likewise not tactical legal at Mystery Mountain.

[MattBurkett]

I have used all the scopes listed so far.

Valdata: Liked a lot of the features of the scope. Mil bars are awesome if you know your dope and data. The dot sucks but the horseshoe works great. Can't find the dot fast enough on the distant targets. Ended up hunting for it when I was shooting the SMM3g. Would be nice if the horse shoe was daylight lit.

Leupold CQT: great scope with a sucky reticle. Reasons already stated in a previous post.

Simmons: great low cost option. You may want to buy a couple as I had problems with the adjustments not being accurate on one of them. No lit reticle. You get what you pay for.

Trijicon Accupoint: Worthless for targets over your sight in distance. Target is obscured by the fiber optics post. Don't care for the triangle reticle. My brain just doesn't like it. I want to shoot it like a dot, but, it's not.

Trijicon TA01: Solid scope without out a daylight reticle. Best option for this type of product is the custom scope made for http://www.jprifles.com the JP CTR-02 ACOG.

Trijicon TA11: This scope rocks especially with a simple modification. The donut rules out to 300 and I can shoot effectively to 600 with the Black Hills 77's. For close range targets 25 yards and in add a Butler Creek 05 objective scope cap. <this only works for same side dominance shooters. Get some double sided tape and pop it in the front. For me it is zero'd at 20 yards with the scope lid closed and 100 yards with the scope lid open. Bizarre but what the hell it works!

Hope that helps.

Matt

[Nate]

Matt, I was coming from the other end, I love the 1 minute dot for the long targets. With my limited amount three gunning all I have seen past 125 yards is steel and my one minute dot is perfect for me. I shoot a lighter bullet in .223 so I don't require any other info in the scope for 300 yards. Up close it's open gun fast. I'm not sure why shooters use anything else (for three gun). Now if you had to shoot a upper A/B with a no shoot close at 150 yards it would be another story.