Making Weight in SS

[ktm300]

Recently I was in a match where my SS gun came up .3 of an ounce over weight. I knew they were going to weigh the guns so I made sure to check mine before the match. I checked it on a very good scale that is professionally calibrated several times a year. Stuff happens and it's water under the bridge for that match but I spend some time looking at the rulebook on how to set up scales for this purpose. I can't find anything except the procedure for setting up a scale for bullet weight. It that is says if the scale can't hold accuracy to +-.1 grain you have to take the stated bullet weight.

Moving someone to open is a pretty big deal and it seems like there should be something in the rulebook to cover it. In this case my gun was weighed 3 times and it was different each time. It was over each time by .3, .4, and .5 of an ounce. Should the .1 grain rule have taken effect as .1 ounce is a lot more than .1 grain?

The scale was calibrated with a 10 gram weight trying to weigh a 1200+ gram object. The scale was not big enough for the gun to fit all the way on the scale so the keep the gun pointed down range the grip was hanging off the scale. The table the scale was on did not look all that close to level. Any of these factors could have pushed the weight up or down by more than the +-10% my gun was off.

The last thing is a friend of mine that shot on Saturday had his gun weighed on Friday on the scale at chrono. When the gun was weighed on Saturday on the same scale it was .5 of an ounce different.

I can't change the outcome of the match but I would like to get something in the rulebook to cover a situation like this. If not I need to make my gun way under the 43 ounce limit so I can be sure to make weight and not end up in open.

[steel1212]

Recently I was in a match where my SS gun came up .3 of an ounce over weight. I knew they were going to weigh the guns so I made sure to check mine before the match. I checked it on a very good scale that is professionally calibrated several times a year. Stuff happens and it's water under the bridge for that match but I spend some time looking at the rulebook on how to set up scales for this purpose. I can't find anything except the procedure for setting up a scale for bullet weight. It that is says if the scale can't hold accuracy to +-.1 grain you have to take the stated bullet weight.

Moving someone to open is a pretty big deal and it seems like there should be something in the rulebook to cover it. In this case my gun was weighed 3 times and it was different each time. It was over each time by .3, .4, and .5 of an ounce. Should the .1 grain rule have taken effect as .1 ounce is a lot more than .1 grain?

The scale was calibrated with a 10 gram weight trying to weigh a 1200+ gram object. The scale was not big enough for the gun to fit all the way on the scale so the keep the gun pointed down range the grip was hanging off the scale. The table the scale was on did not look all that close to level. Any of these factors could have pushed the weight up or down by more than the +-10% my gun was off.

The last thing is a friend of mine that shot on Saturday had his gun weighed on Friday on the scale at chrono. When the gun was weighed on Saturday on the same scale it was .5 of an ounce different.

I can't change the outcome of the match but I would like to get something in the rulebook to cover a situation like this. If not I need to make my gun way under the 43 ounce limit so I can be sure to make weight and not end up in open.

Do you make your ammo to chrono exactly 165 PF or 170 to allow for varience? Its the same thing with the divisions that get weighed, make sure your well under.

[twodownzero]

Recently I was in a match where my SS gun came up .3 of an ounce over weight. I knew they were going to weigh the guns so I made sure to check mine before the match. I checked it on a very good scale that is professionally calibrated several times a year. Stuff happens and it's water under the bridge for that match but I spend some time looking at the rulebook on how to set up scales for this purpose. I can't find anything except the procedure for setting up a scale for bullet weight. It that is says if the scale can't hold accuracy to +-.1 grain you have to take the stated bullet weight.

Moving someone to open is a pretty big deal and it seems like there should be something in the rulebook to cover it. In this case my gun was weighed 3 times and it was different each time. It was over each time by .3, .4, and .5 of an ounce. Should the .1 grain rule have taken effect as .1 ounce is a lot more than .1 grain?

The scale was calibrated with a 10 gram weight trying to weigh a 1200+ gram object. The scale was not big enough for the gun to fit all the way on the scale so the keep the gun pointed down range the grip was hanging off the scale. The table the scale was on did not look all that close to level. Any of these factors could have pushed the weight up or down by more than the +-10% my gun was off.

The last thing is a friend of mine that shot on Saturday had his gun weighed on Friday on the scale at chrono. When the gun was weighed on Saturday on the same scale it was .5 of an ounce different.

I can't change the outcome of the match but I would like to get something in the rulebook to cover a situation like this. If not I need to make my gun way under the 43 ounce limit so I can be sure to make weight and not end up in open.

Do you make your ammo to chrono exactly 165 PF or 170 to allow for varience? Its the same thing with the divisions that get weighed, make sure your well under.

I'm sorry Corey, but that is a complete BS answer. It is difficult to measure bullet speed, and literally different every single time it's measured, because some variance is expected based on powder charge, temperature, bullet seating depth, etc.

Measuring weight does not depend on environmental factors or the fact that once we fire a bullet over the chrono, it's gone forever and can't be fired again.

A scale should be properly calibrated, objective, and the same every single time and for every single competitor. A gun that is not overweight should not bump someone to open, period, because it's something that we can expect, and even demand, that match administrators do properly, every single time.

How much a gun weighs does not change. It's not like the chrono in that respect, and I should not have to have a gun that is any lighter than the max, because the scale should be properly calibrated and measuring an entirely consistent and objective factors.

[ktm300]

Do you make your ammo to chrono exactly 165 PF or 170 to allow for varience? Its the same thing with the divisions that get weighed, make sure your well under.

<<Its the same thing >>

To me, it is not the same. I do run about 170PF which is about a 3% bump on something that should vary by several different factors, including temperature and altitude. My chrono varys from day to day depending on conditions and the quality of my work on the press. The weight of my gun should not change much from match to match. Every time I weigh it, on a high quality, well set up scale, it is very close (+- .01 oz) to the same.

There are well defined standards for how to set up and run the chrono. There are methods in the rulebook to question the setup of the chrono and the scale that weighs the bullets. There don't seem to be set standards in how to weigh a gun, or methods to challenge the setup. If we are going to measure something that can change the outcome of an event, we need to define how to measure it.

My understanding of the rules is that once you are moved to Open, there is no going back for that match, even if the reason you are moved is proved to be false later in the day. Open sucks for a gun that holds 8 in the magazine, and has no comp or dot. It pretty much is game over. If I chrono at 164 I still get to shoot the match minor.

[steel1212]

Do you make your ammo to chrono exactly 165 PF or 170 to allow for varience? Its the same thing with the divisions that get weighed, make sure your well under.

<<Its the same thing >>

To me, it is not the same. I do run about 170PF which is about a 3% bump on something that should vary by several different factors, including temperature and altitude. My chrono varys from day to day depending on conditions and the quality of my work on the press. The weight of my gun should not change much from match to match. Every time I weigh it, on a high quality, well set up scale, it is very close (+- .01 oz) to the same.

There are well defined standards for how to set up and run the chrono. There are methods in the rulebook to question the setup of the chrono and the scale that weighs the bullets. There don't seem to be set standards in how to weigh a gun, or methods to challenge the setup. If we are going to measure something that can change the outcome of an event, we need to define how to measure it.

My understanding of the rules is that once you are moved to Open, there is no going back for that match, even if the reason you are moved is proved to be false later in the day. Open sucks for a gun that holds 8 in the magazine, and has no comp or dot. It pretty much is game over. If I chrono at 164 I still get to shoot the match minor.

Didn't you just say your chrono varies from day to day? You can use the exact same scale and set it up the exact same way and it will still vary for what ever reasons. I agree with you there should be a standard but at the same time, get your gun well below 43 and you won't have to worry about it.

[technetium-99m]

I may just be talking out of my rear here, but I've always wondered why there isn't an official 43oz weight for use at majors. If your SS weighs less than the weight on the scale you're good to go.

Of course this doesn't even start to address production.

[jhgtyre]

I may just be talking out of my rear here, but I've always wondered why there isn't an official 43oz weight for use at majors. If your SS weighs less than the weight on the scale you're good to go.

Of course this doesn't even start to address production.

We do have an official mag gauge so why not an official weight? I like the idea.

-ld

[steel1212]

I may just be talking out of my rear here, but I've always wondered why there isn't an official 43oz weight for use at majors. If your SS weighs less than the weight on the scale you're good to go.

Of course this doesn't even start to address production.

We do have an official mag gauge so why not an official weight? I like the idea.

-ld

Are you going to have an official weight for every single production gun weight? I do like the idea though as it would solve a lot of problems. Put it on a balance scale and see how you swing!

[TISCHLJ]

Wind could have an effect at the weighing of the gun.

I have a digital postal scale.

If the weights were different at the chrono each time the pistol was weighed, I would have contested the scale and or operator.

[sperman]

Do you make your ammo to chrono exactly 165 PF or 170 to allow for varience? Its the same thing with the divisions that get weighed, make sure your well under.

<<Its the same thing >>

To me, it is not the same. I do run about 170PF which is about a 3% bump on something that should vary by several different factors, including temperature and altitude. My chrono varys from day to day depending on conditions and the quality of my work on the press. The weight of my gun should not change much from match to match. Every time I weigh it, on a high quality, well set up scale, it is very close (+- .01 oz) to the same.

There are well defined standards for how to set up and run the chrono. There are methods in the rulebook to question the setup of the chrono and the scale that weighs the bullets. There don't seem to be set standards in how to weigh a gun, or methods to challenge the setup. If we are going to measure something that can change the outcome of an event, we need to define how to measure it.

My understanding of the rules is that once you are moved to Open, there is no going back for that match, even if the reason you are moved is proved to be false later in the day. Open sucks for a gun that holds 8 in the magazine, and has no comp or dot. It pretty much is game over. If I chrono at 164 I still get to shoot the match minor.

Didn't you just say your chrono varies from day to day? You can use the exact same scale and set it up the exact same way and it will still vary for what ever reasons. I agree with you there should be a standard but at the same time, get your gun well below 43 and you won't have to worry about it.

I agree with Corey. I'm not saying it is right, but given the potential for error, I want to be 42.0 or less.

[twodownzero]

We should just add an ounce or two to the allowable weight, instead of letting it be so close to the typical weight of a factory single stack with modest upgrades like a magwell.

[MustangGreg66]

The only time I had mine weighed I was way under since I had hollowed out alumagrips, standard FL GR (not tungstin) and a polymer MSH. Now that I've added some weight I know I'm under still but am kinda worried about the weighing process. Same goes for my Glock G34 Production gun. They allow +2oz over stock with an empty mag, but I've weighed several of my mags and they come out a little diffrent between the newer and older mags I have. After I add grip tape, sights, and a tungstin guiderod it's getting closer to the limit.

[ktm300]

I may just be talking out of my rear here, but I've always wondered why there isn't an official 43oz weight for use at majors. If your SS weighs less than the weight on the scale you're good to go.

Of course this doesn't even start to address production.

Not so fast. I agree, it would be good to have an official weight to calibrate the scale with. It would also be good to have that weight close to the weight we are looking for. The problem comes when the scale is not level, and / or the platform is not big enough to hold the gun, you can toss in a lot of error. The scale tilted downrange and the gun hung over the edge uprange is a easy way to make the scale read incorrectly.

Again, we need to specify, in the rulebook, how to weigh a gun just like we specify how to run the chrono.

Saying that you need to show up way under weight to be safe is a not a good way around having the process correct. What do you do if you show up with a 42 ounce gun and it weighs 43.5 at chrono? You go to Open as there is nothing in the rulebook (as far as I can tell) to help you fight the error.

[steel1212]

We should just add an ounce or two to the allowable weight, instead of letting it be so close to the typical weight of a factory single stack with modest upgrades like a magwell.

Thats just asking for problems. The rule is your magazine needs to be 140mm. The gauge is 141.25mm to allow for wiggle room. What happens is people take their mags to 141.25mm, BUT there is a gauge that is go no-go. With the weight thing if you say the gun needs to be 43oz but we are going to give you to 45 for wiggle room you'll now have 45oz guns. Take that same theory and get your gun down to 41oz and you have 2oz of wiggle room with the 43oz rule.

[Chuck Anderson]

We should just add an ounce or two to the allowable weight, instead of letting it be so close to the typical weight of a factory single stack with modest upgrades like a magwell.

Thats just asking for problems. The rule is your magazine needs to be 140mm. The gauge is 141.25mm to allow for wiggle room. What happens is people take their mags to 141.25mm, BUT there is a gauge that is go no-go. With the weight thing if you say the gun needs to be 43oz but we are going to give you to 45 for wiggle room you'll now have 45oz guns. Take that same theory and get your gun down to 41oz and you have 2oz of wiggle room with the 43oz rule.

I think ( always a mistake) what TDZ is getting at is that the weight limit should be increased, not for wiggle room, but to more accurately reflect what many single stacks really weigh. Be easier if you could do the standard common mods and not really have to worry about milling out the grip frame to try and make weight.

[twodownzero]

We should just add an ounce or two to the allowable weight, instead of letting it be so close to the typical weight of a factory single stack with modest upgrades like a magwell.

Thats just asking for problems. The rule is your magazine needs to be 140mm. The gauge is 141.25mm to allow for wiggle room. What happens is people take their mags to 141.25mm, BUT there is a gauge that is go no-go. With the weight thing if you say the gun needs to be 43oz but we are going to give you to 45 for wiggle room you'll now have 45oz guns. Take that same theory and get your gun down to 41oz and you have 2oz of wiggle room with the 43oz rule.

I think ( always a mistake) what TDZ is getting at is that the weight limit should be increased, not for wiggle room, but to more accurately reflect what many single stacks really weigh. Be easier if you could do the standard common mods and not really have to worry about milling out the grip frame to try and make weight.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I've not shot a major with my SS but I do plan on doing it this year. I remain unconvinced that an ounce or two, which could reflect the weight of heavier magazine basepads or grips, really makes a meaningful difference, when a single round of ammunition weighs more than that.

If the goal of the rules are to eliminate a potential arms race, I fail to see how setting the weight restrictions so tight that some consider using lighter weight FLGRs, GI guide rods, aluminum or even plastic MSHs, etc., to make weight, makes any sense.

Especially not when the best legal way (although admittedly not the most cost effective) is to just tri-top the slide, eliminating weight from the one area of the gun where it really matters, and in doing so, providing plenty of allowance for other do-dads.

The weight restriction as currently set isn't adding any competitive equity by creating a dilemma about what kind of magwell, MSH, or grips I should choose to make sure my gun makes weight. Adding one more ounce for "wiggle room" would probably be enough that even the heavier Caspian frames with a normal slide and the user's choice of grips, magwell, sights, etc, and still not have to worry, while also eliminating the calibration issues.

If you have a 45 ounce gun, I see no problem with the bump to open, as you've clearly, then, added a considerable amount of weight, and your lack of consideration costs you. No stock gun with any of the readily available magwells/grips is going to break 45 ounces.

Someone who takes a stock 1911 out of the box and pops on a magwell and replaces the grips shouldn't have to worry about running afoul of the restrictions, which were clearly written to deal with people who add tungsten guide rods to already all-steel guns and thus have little/no excuse for not knowing their gun is too heavy.

[Corey]

I dont see the problem with the current SS weight. Both of my guns are under the limit, altho one is closer than the other. I had to swap some parts to get that one (backup gun) to a safe weight. My primary gun is under that and has weighed in exactly the same every time it hits a match scale.

Similar to PF, just don't cut it too close. If you load for 165.2, you're asking for trouble. If you shoot a SS gun weighing 42.9oz, you're asking for trouble.

The only thing that I could see happening would be a certified "official" check weight. One company to make them and verify them. Then if there were any questions at a major match, they zero the scale and put on the "official" check weight. Doesnt matter if its 42.0 or 39.5, just as long as all of them are the same world wide. Then if the scale didnt read the proper weight, you'd have some argument about your gun being too heavy. If it weighed out perfectly, then the scale works and your gun needs to go on a diet.

[ktm300]

Someone who takes a stock 1911 out of the box and pops on a magwell and replaces the grips shouldn't have to worry about running afoul of the restrictions

That is pretty much where my gun is. STI Trojan, Dawson NoGap magwell & MSH, lightweight Koenig hammer, some Davidson G10 grips, Ed Brown Wide Ambi safety with more than half of the right side cut away so it doesn't chew up my hand. All the rest is stock and I am 42.8 oz which is obviously way too close. Not much of a cheater gun for sure.

[bbbean]

Do you make your ammo to chrono exactly 165 PF or 170 to allow for varience? Its the same thing with the divisions that get weighed, make sure your well under.

I have to chime in with the others and say that the chrono and the scale shouldn't have the same level of tolerance.

Chrono measurement is still a bit of voodoo, with limited and imperfect means of calibration. Even if the chrono itself was easily calibrated and 100% reliable, there are a host of variables in ammo production, gun maintenance, weather, etc that can affect velocity, so that it is possible to have a load that is verifiably major one day run minor the next. It makes sense to work up a load that gives you plenty of cushion.

But weight shouldn't vary, certainly not at the level we're measuring. While it is reasonable to expect a shooter to check his gun on accurate scales prior to competition, I think it is unreasonable to ask shooters to build in the same cushion they do for load velocity. Your gun doesn't gain or lose weight due to factors beyond your control. Scales are easily verifiable. A bubble level, a windscreen, and an appropriate check weight (43 oz would be ideal, but it should certainly be in the same range as what we're measuring) should be standard issue, and scales should be designed to hold each gun the same way so as to minimize variance due to gun position.

Consider - we wouldn't suggest someone allow an extra 1/2 inch on all sides just in case the box at the match ran on the small side. Most of us check our guns size and weight once, and figure we're good unless we make changes. While I personally wouldn't run a gun at 42.99 (experience tells me I can pack an extra 1/2 ounce of grease and crud in my gun if I don't clean it for 8K rounds of lead!), I think a shooter should be able to get pretty close to 43 and still not worry at the scale.

I think 43 is pretty manageable, but I do think we should tighten up our procedures.

[Skydiver]

And when we tighten up the procedures, make sure that it is worded clearly.

We probably don't want the same type of discussion like this thread where things are muddied by the misuse of the word "variance": http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112612&hl=weight&st=0

[MGMorden]

One thing to keep in mind too - mass is constant, but weight isn't. Weight can change ever so slightly with altitude. Not much, but on a 43oz gun a change in altitude of say 5k feet could result in a weight change of 0.3-0.4 oz (weight loss on gaining altitude - weight gain if decreasing altitude).

Edited April 4, 2012 by MGMorden

[steel1212]

I just don't get it I guess. I've shot CDP with a .45 SPringfield and never had any problems making the 41oz IDPA weight. In USPSA the weight limit is 2 more oz and my 9mm or my .40 with their heavier barrels still makes it with room to spare and if I shot .45 it would have the most wiggle room. You guys shooting .45s should have no problem doing that. My stock Springfields where never exactly light guns and I ran the biggest magwells that fit the box. If it takes some work to get the gun into 43oz then do the work.

With that said I do agree there needs to be an official weighing procedure that works more consistently. I've never been over so I've never given it much thought but while we are discussing it there does need to be something changed. The only way to get that in motion is to run it up the chain of command. We can sit here and complain about it until we are blue in the face but until somebody talks to their AD nothing is going to happen.

[mhs]

One thing to keep in mind too - mass is constant, but weight isn't. Weight can change ever so slightly with altitude. Not much, but on a 43oz gun a change in altitude of say 5k feet could result in a weight change of 0.3-0.4 oz (weight loss on gaining altitude - weight gain if decreasing altitude).

Are you sure? I think it's more like a 0.02 oz decrease for 5000 feet higher.

[MGMorden]

One thing to keep in mind too - mass is constant, but weight isn't. Weight can change ever so slightly with altitude. Not much, but on a 43oz gun a change in altitude of say 5k feet could result in a weight change of 0.3-0.4 oz (weight loss on gaining altitude - weight gain if decreasing altitude).

Are you sure? I think it's more like a 0.02 oz decrease for 5000 feet higher.

Actually, your math is correct. I had a multiplication error on my original calcs.

[warpspeed]

This is not about what the correct weight should be for SS. We know what that is.

The question is how do you calibrate a scale and , more importantly, what to do if the scale being used cannot weigh the same object twice and get the same number.

If you have a scale and you put an object on it and it reads 42.20 oz, removing the object and placing it back on should give you the same number. Exactly. If not, it should not be used.