Multi-Club Matches

[BDH]

I can't believe that this has not been discussed here, but tried the search function, drew a blank, so here goes....

Recently a local shooter mentioned an idea about two or more local clubs getting together to host a bigger match. Since there are several clubs within an hours drive of Cincinnati, we could probably pull this off. I suppose we could do something like shoot one club on Saturday, one club on Sunday, and then combine scores for an overall winner. OTOH, since most of our clubs are limited in the number of bays, we could probably shoot a morning flight at two seperate clubs, and then have them flip flop to shoot an afternoon flight at the other club. I would guess that doing that we could probably run 8 - 10 stages. Then again, for the truly possessed.... if we involved all four local clubs, I suppose we could shoot morning and afternoon flights on both Saturday and Sunday, giving us a total of 16 - 20 stages.

A multi-club match seems like a reasonable idea. A couple of things that appear to be benefits are:

• Since many clubs are constrained by either number of bays, props, or workers, this would spread the load
  
• It would allow people to see and shoot multiple clubs in one match
  
• There would probably be some inter-club rivalry to build the best stages
  

On the downside, I can think of the following issues....

• Depending on the format, shooters would have to shoot, then pull their gear off, go find the next club, and then get ready to shoot again
  
• I can only begin to imagine scoring something like this because of lost or traveling scoresheets
  
• Even if local clubs built the stages, it still might be a problem to staff all of them with certified RO's
  
• On that note, what about the RM? do we have one per club, or one per overall match and potentially have to call him on the telephone...
  

Has anyone ever tried anything like this before? If so, what worked and what did not work? Would any of you travel in to shoot something like this, or would we just end up doing all the work, to compress four club matches into one, and see our normal shooters?

Inquiring minds want to know....

[Jim Norman]

I think that this could be a great idea.

Look at it this way, If there are say 2-4 clubs in your area you probably have about 1/2 the shooters shooting all and a portion that shoot a couple but not the same. The benifits are: for an extra X$ you are entered into a special match, the results are the total of all of the matches, only those that shoot at all the clubs are eligible, the clubs split the money. 50% to the clubs, 50% to the shooters (or any other formula that works) Chances are you will see a higher turnout, especially at the clubs that traditionally have a lower participation.

I am going to see how the locals here feel about it and what the clubs have to say. It should be a win-win-win situation for all involved. Only real concern is doing the scores, I suppose one person should handle all the scoring. Enter all details 2x or maybe the slave system can be used.

Lots to work out, but I like the idea, a lot!

Jim Norman

[Neil Beverley]

Brian

An interesting post.

I will add to your posed suggestions that the same concept can be employed to build a "Tournament". Please note in this context "Tournament" refers to separate single gun matches.

On this basis one club could host the handgun match and another, say, a shotgun match. Even add in a third for a rifle match. Bolt them together and you achieve a Tournament. They do not even need to be held on the same weekend.

I'm hoping Vince will chip in with his memory banks to save me doing the research, but I believe it is also possible to create a Tournament from 2 separate handgun matches. What I can't remember is whether these can be constructed from different divisions but I seem to recall this is possible. For example a revolver (only) match at one club + an Open Division (only) match at another. Vince?

This in turns builds a bigger shooting "event" but takes some of the pressure off the smaller clubs who can then put on smaller elements of the overall event.

[Vince Pinto]

Brian,

Been there, done that, still have the bruises

Actually it's not as difficult as it might initially sound. The first time I ran such a match was in 1994 at two clubs about 20 miles apart, which is a long way for HK. We broke the competitors into two groups (I forget how many squads in each), with one group at each range. Each group shot at one range on the first day and at the other range on the second day (and vice versa).

Back then, email and the Internet were not yet common tools, so we used MSS and it's Master/Slave feature for scoring. We had two competitor's wives (who called themselves "IPSC Widows") serving as scorers, and each entered all the scores at her respective range. The "slave" club then delivered a floppy diskette (remember them?) to the "master" club at the end of Day 2, we cranked the handle, stomped on the pedals and, bingo-bango, overall match results before dinner. These days you can do it much faster with the WinMSS LAN function over telephone lines, although I've never personally tried it, and I don't have a clue about the features of EzWinScore.

As far as Range Officials were concerned, I was RM at the bigger range, and I had a trusted Deputy RM at the other, and we communicated twice a day by phone. We took a chance and had one RO assigned per squad, but the briefings and Q&A for every stage were handled by the RM (me) and my DRM (my mate) for consistency, which is why we stayed put at our respective ranges and didn't shoot. You could do the same with 3 or 4 ranges, but you'd need to have more personnel. The squad ROs still shot the match, but they were senior guys who served as "CRO/competitors".

Actually I've been thinking about doing this again with our next Level III, because we have very small ranges here, so combining 2 or 3 ranges would allow us to increase from, say, 8 stages to 16 stages.

In fact, I'm thinking of going totally nuts and having half a match in Hong Kong and half a match in Macau, which is only 1 hour away by Jetfoil (or high speed ferry), but you still need a passport to travel between the two places (imagine a match held partly in the USA and partly in Canada)

Hope this helps.

[Vince Pinto]

Oooops. Just saw Neil's message after I clicked the "Add Reply" button. I'll stick my reply in this section once I've had a chance to write it !!

-----------------------

Neil,

To answer your question, the match I recounted above was a single handgun match held at two ranges on consecutive days, so it was effectively a garden-variety match, but with a few added "locality" challenges, hence it's still covered by Rule 6.1.4.

Rule 6.1.5 explains a League (two or more separate matches, same gun type, same rulebook).

Rule 6.1.6 explains Tournaments (two or more separate matches, different gun type, different rulebooks). Of course we also have our new Tournament rulebook to give you more specifics about Tournament Divisions and so on.

Hence Brian (and everybody else) has three broad choices, which can be further narrowed down if desired to limit gun types within each discipline. In other words, the existing rules give you endless possibilites.

However, Brian, if you're unclear about the rules, tell me exactly what you want to do, and I'll be delighted to propose a simple solution.

[Jim Norman]

I would opt the following:

More than one club must participate (or its not a Multi-Club event)

There can be different types of match

A) all the same divisionand same gun spread over multiple days (EASIEST)

2 or 3 gun as in Pistol, Rifle or Shotgun one at each club (HARD)

C) Multi-gun rules, (USPSA Provisional) all the same divisons (HARD)

D) Multiple divisions, this may be the toughest since a lot of shooters may not be equiped to shoot Open, Limited, Production and Revolver. Also it restricts the clubs running the matches somewhat in design, although that is not a big problem.

I would keep any rules to a bare minimum beyond the current rulebook. In fact, I am not sure we even need a rule change to run this. The clubs in question merely state that they will be holding a tournement and that all are invited, that you will need to shoot at Clubs X, Y & Z in what ever divisions are decided by the match directors if you want to be considered for a prize. This really differs little from the Points Series that USPAS is already running. I would start out with Choice 'A' above as it is the least restrictive of the clubs and the shooters.

Onoe rule: A Match DQ at any of the matches disqualifies you from the multi-club tournement. You may continue in other matches that make up the tournement for the prizes offered by the host club, but the Multi-club prize is now off the table for you.

I am sure more details and ideas will be forthcomming form the rest of you. Let's keep it simple if we want to do this, Complications will stop it cold, we are already working our collective tails off just running our regularr matches.

Jim Norman

[BDH]

Jim, thanks for comments. Just remember, this wasn't MY idea. This idea belongs to another local (who is also a BE member), so I assume he will chime in and then we can give credit where credit is due!

Neil, now you raise some really interesting suggestions. First, I had not even thought about doing this as a Tournament. Second, the multi-gun idea is very interesting. Our club has pistol bays and a couple of rifle ranges (out to 600 yards), but no shotgun. Other local clubs have pistol bays and shotgun facilities, and one local club has pistol, shotgun and rifle facilities. There are probably a lot of match possibilities by combining them.

One of the other negatives I thought about was just the difficulties of trying to get even two clubs pulled together for something like this (and obviously, it gets increasingly difficult with more clubs involved). For example, we have the pistol bays on the fourth Sunday of the month. On most other weekends, some other discipline has them. Same thing with the rifle ranges, they pretty much belong to the rifle disciplines, not us guys. I assume the other local clubs have similar situations, although probably on different weekends than us, which would mean it would be difficult to pull this off. Probably not insurmountable, but still probably difficult.

[Vince Pinto]

This really differs little from the Points Series that USPAS is already running. I would start out with Choice 'A' above as it is the least restrictive of the clubs and the shooters.

The USPSA Points Series is simply a Handgun League - see Rule 6.1.6.

[Neil Beverley]

Amazingly Vince's memory banks failed on this occasion so I had to do the leg work.

There is an outstanding proposal for an interpretation to allow a Tournament to be created by 2 matches nominating different divisions but it's still on the table:

1.4 Examples of recognized IPSC Tournaments and their component matches are:

1.4.5 An IPSC discipline specific tournament (e.g. Handgun only), with two or more component matches, each requiring compliance with a single recognised division (e.g. Standard Division Handgun match + Production Division Handgun match).

Vince wrote the proposed change (above) and I supported it. It hasn't progressed any further at this stage but at least I'm not going mad and have started imagining things.

[Jim Norman]

So, why can't several local clubs have a handgun league?

It is the simplest match to start. all you have to do is shoot all the matches in the same division.

We have two clubs that the majority of shooters in our area all shoot as well as three others that many shoot. It would be possible maybe to get all five involved and it could be a real boon to the smaller less well attended.

Jim Norman

[Garfield]

Our yearly level III match "Dutch Open" is organised with help of two (formerly three) clubs, and it works well. Yoda (Kees Guichelaar) or GvU (John van Uitert) could tell you more about what to do and what not to do.

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

I think PaulB has brought this up on here before...I'd have to dig hard to find it (I don't know that it had it's onw thread).

There was an IDPA match here in Ohio that did this about a year ago (near Akron, maybe?). I didn't hear any big fall-out from that match, so it must have wnet well enough. (I think it was 3 clubs)

I was going to mention the tourny approach, but that has been covered. So, I'll go this way...

Really...it could be ran just like any other match. When the shooter finishes shooting Stages 1-4 at one club...they simply travel to "Stage 5", which happens to be a bit further away than normal.

RO's might not be any bigger of an issue than any other match. If youi dedicate an RO to each stage of a 10-12 stage match...they are there on that stage all the time...location of the stage isn't really a factor. (Of course, it makes it harder to shift extra help to a stage that may need a few more staff as help...that would need to be addressed in the planning.)

Other staff...that would have to be increased. I think you'd want to run stats at each club...and post some interim results in case a shooter needs to reshoot before leaving that range.

Each club/range would need a Mr. FixIt, stats runner, stats person (or two), plus a CRO/RM for each club/range.

Likely need a written briefing for the shooter's meeting, so that everybody gets the same briefing. Ans, any questions asked at the briefing should be recorded and read to the next set of shooters when they arrive.

It's doable. It would take a lot of dedicated work.

And, you aksed the most important question...would the shooters show up for it?

[rhino]

I had this idea in the shower yesterday ... weird!

Where we live in central Indiana, ChIPS shoots at a range with seven really nice pistol bays (25x25 yards), but WVPPS shoots at a range with lots of space (more than 200 yards available for rifle shots).

I was thinking our clubs could combine for a big 3-Gun match where we do most of the pistol with ChIPS and then the rifle and any long range shotgun with WVPPS. Half the shooters could shoot at each on Saturday, then they switch for Sunday.

It would allow us to exploit the best features of both facilities. Anyone who wanted to shoot just pistol could just shoot at ChIPS.

[Kingman]

In VA Fredericksburg and Quantico combine every month. What they do is instead of each having 3 or 4 stages they will all work and set up 7 or so and 2 classifiers.

Being the Fredericksburg range is big and has lots of bay's they set it all up there.

[Jim Norman]

How about we don't do anything special with regard to set-up or staff.

I run my regular match. You run yours. The club down the street runs theirs. If you only want to shoot at one or two clubs, Ok, no extra charge, no special treatment. BUT if you want in in the BIG match, you pay $5 extra per club or what ever amount is decided upon, you then shoot at all the clubs in the BIG MATCH or Tournament and your scores are combined from all say 3 of the 5 stage matches for a total of 15 stages or what ever the actual is, and the results are posted. Only those that shoot all three are entered into the BIG MATCH, the rest are in the same as always.

The only extra work would be the extra Stats Work. And that I think can be reduced if the DBs from each club are forwarded to the next club in the line or if one person does the scores that cycle for all the clubs involved.

I think the really big upside is that more shooters may attend multiple matches and shoot at a club that they might not regularly atend, but that is not too far away.

All this is not to say that a #-gun where one club runs rifle, one pistol and one Shotgun wouldn't work, but maybe we should walk before we run?

Jim Norman

[Guy Neill]

A couple of the clubs in the Portland, OR area have teamed up in this manner going back several years. Check the Dundee Club in the Area One section as I believe they were one of the two. Tri-County may be the other. It's been just long enough since I shot over there that I'm not sure.

The upcoming Columbia Cascade Section match may be that format this year. Again, working on vague memory.

Guy

[BDH]

Flex, like I started with... hard to believe that this hadn't been discussed here, but I couldn't find it either. It would make sense that PaulB may have started this somewhere, because apparently there has been some discussion about this up at Oxford.

As for RO's.... I hear you, but I also know how this works. If we want dedicated RO's on a stage (and I think this would be a must), then I look at the number of certified RO's at MRP, and what I see is that the handful of us will be stuck at MRP running shooters with no chance to shoot this. You know me, and know that I certainly pitch in to help run matches, but I would WANT to shoot this!! I can not imagine pulling it off due to the logistics, but if all four of the Cincinnati clubs pitched in with 4 stages each, and I could shoot 16 stages on a Saturday and Sunday, I would ABSOLUTELY want to shoot this!

Of course that gets us back to one of my original questions that went unanswered, and your restatement of that question.... WOULD SHOOTERS COME TO SHOOT SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

Jim N, we are on the same page. Keep it simple for the initial outing. Multiple clubs... shooting their own match... but with combined scoring to make it a big match. I like it...

[Paul B]

BDH, I won't take credit for this idea, it actually came out of a conversation several of us had on our way to a match in Louisville.

The clubs around Louisville were actually the subject of our discussion, because there are 2 excellent range facilities within 10 miles of one another. Both could host 8-9 stages each and they are both within 10 miles of downtown Louisville. A third club was about 20 miles away with another potential 8-9 bays. Additionally, at that time there were a wealth of certified RO's in that area (there may still be). More importantly there was a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for the sport. We thought it would be a great way of attracting a national level match from the standard spots but it was all speculation because nobody talked to the guys in Louisville at the time. They are having majors at one of the clubs already this year - the Ky State and Area 5.

The Cincinnati area also has potential, but most of the clubs have fewer bays which would require more range movement. As you know MRPC got seven stages in at the last match, but having 3 stages in one bay would cause an unbelievable backup in a major. I don't really know how many RO's there are in the Cincy area, so that could be logistically difficult. I know of the 7 people we usually shoot with, 4 are certified, but I don't know who else actually is certified and willing to not shoot the match. Perhaps there could be a seperate RO shoot the day/evening before the match. The problem in Cincy might be getting more ranges to sign on to the committment.

I still believe this would be a wonderful way of having an international level match close to an area that would be more fun on the extracuricular side, but it would take a lot of work.

[BDH]

Paul,

This is GREAT news! I think the Louisville clubs sound like they have better facilities, more staff, are closer together, etc. Since they are only two hours away, I can't wait to show up and shoot this! Where are the match applications? What are the dates?

[jspruance]

I agree with Jim Norman about keeping it simple.

What if the local clubs agreed on a month ( a slow one for major matches) then just took their regular club match and put a little extra into it maybe a little more elaborate than a normal club match. That would mean the entire " expanded match" would take several weeks to shoot but this might make manning the stages easier.

That way the local RO's could shoot before or after the match. Like Jim said when you sign up you declare you are shooting the entire program and pay a few extra bucks to be in for the prize. If you can't or don't want to shoot it all you only pay the regularv club fee.

Jim S.

[Matthew_Mink]

There are 2 clubs in NW Arkansas that run a low/nolight IDPA match. It is a very popular match and I think it has been running for about 5 or 6 years. Half of the match is held at one range, and the other half at the other. Squads are formed and people are shooting at both ranges pretty much constantly. Pretty fun match, and some notables shot it, including Jerry Miculek.

[Allan & Jan's Customs]

You guys are hard core!

[Vince Pinto]

How about we don't do anything special with regard to set-up or staff. I run my regular match. You run yours. The club down the street runs theirs.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that but (with apologies to all for slight thread drift, which is nevertheless still relevant to this discussion), this is precisely why match DQs apply to a single match

If the three (my, your, his) matches are unrelated, standalone matches, a match DQ at Club 1 does not prevent your participation in the matches held at Club 2 and/or Club 3, on either the same or different days.

By the same token, just because you offer to combine the scores obtained at those very same three matches into a League (essentially by shuffling some scoresheets and awarding overall trophies), this is not justification for a "DQ at one, DQ at all" policy. You would only use the scores for component matches which each competitor completed sucessfully towards his "overall combined" result (e.g. 500 points + 0 points + 450 points = 950 League points).

On the other hand, if it's a single match, with stages split over 2 or more ranges (namely the topic of this discussion), then a match DQ on any component stage applies to the whole box 'n' dice.

Hence you must clearly identify the nature of your particular beast.

[Skywalker]

We've been doing the following for several years here in Italy.

A single club, or a joint team of several clubs run a small local league during the Italian League vacation (which occurs from October to April), and there were several in Italy this winter.

The advantage of a league, instead of a single match, besides what Vince pointed out, is the fact that most shooters probably won't have 3 or 4 free weekends to attend all segments of a multi-club match. If you run a mini-league, instead, you can easily have 5 small matches and compile standings with best 3 averages.

This way a competitor can choose if he has time to attend all 5 matches (and average 3 best), or attend only 3 and still run for prizes at the end of the league.

If anyone is interested, just PM me for details and/or scoring programs for small leagues (OK, bigger leagues as well, since I did these programs for the Italian League).

[Jim Norman]

What I am proposing is a Match (I think that is the IPSC Correct term) where several clubs hold their regular matches and you are ALSO entered into the Big Match. If you DQ from at one of the component matches, you are DQ'd from the Big Match. You can still compete in the subsquent component matches as they stand on their own as well as being components of the Big Match (I think we need another name since the acronym for Big Match is BM) .

To recap: You shoot at Club A, B & C, 4 Stages, 5 stages and 7 stages for a total of 16 stages. These are combined to see how you do over a time period of two to three weeks. If you DQ at any one, you can still shoot the others, but no longer as a part of the Big Match.

Note I am calling this a Match, not a Tournament. It is just made up of stages shot at different clubs on different days. Those that wish to compete in the Big Match sign up for it in addition to the regular match at the club. You must sign up before the first match is started, (no let's see how I do, I'll sign up after its over). Each shooter at each individual match is in contention for the prizes and honors at that match as well as for the bigger picture. The only extra work is to the guy doing the record keeping and scoring. No extra cost to the clubs. No extra staff. Possible upside is that more people may elect to shoot more matches that they might normally skip.

Downside is someone will want to make up a whole slew of new rules to govern this and burden it so heavily that it dies on the vine. We don't need any new rules to do this and we don't need a new definition. it is a Match, pure and simple. You might want to call it a league, but we are requiring that you shoot all the component matches to qualify, we are scoring all the component matches together as one large match. In a league we would award finish points and the high or low points would win depending upon how you decided to run the league. We are also requiring you shoot only one division in this match. No cross divisional entries allowed.

As I said earlier, "Let's keep it simple and get it started" we can always tweak where needed later on.

I am planning on proposing this to my local group in the next couple of weeks. Probably set it up for the end of the year, maybe November/December. If it works, maybe we can make it a yearly thing.

Specifically to answer Vince's point,

I am proposing that the DQ be for the Overall Big Match, which while it consists of the component matches is entirely seperate from them. If you DQ at one match component, you are DQ'd there, and for the Big Match, but not for the other components. This would be the same as a league where you count the top 3 of 5 approved matches. If you DQ'd at one that would obviously not be one you counted, but you could still shoot the rest.

I think that the nomenclature will need to be addressed somewhat so that everyone is on the same page. This is a new venture or at least one that has not been prevelent recently. The existing definitions and rules will fit mostly, there are probably a few tweaks. After we run this in a few places a few times maybe we'll need a page of clarification.

My proposal is for a combination of regular matches.

Others have proposed and I support a multi-club multi-gun or three gun format. That is a different animal since it is probably in addition to the normal schedule. It will invlove a lot more work and stafee and possibly more expense. My proposal only adds a slight amount of work to the stats guy.

Jim Norman