8.3.3

[Schutzenmeister]

Tangent to this discussion about "HEARING and REACTING to the Start Signal". As I understand things, the start signal doesn't have to be audible. Yes, it's the most common one we have because the equipment we currently have makes it so easy. As I understand it, it's legal to create a stage where there is a visual start signal like a drop turner turning to face the shooter in a fixed time stage. (I learned this when I asked about 9.2.4.2.)

I'm dreaming of creating a stage someday that is a self-start stage with an Indiana Jones theme: grabbing the idol gets the ball rolling if you'll pardon the pun. I just need to figure out how to have that self-start synchronize with a shot timer, so that as the shooter goes and runs the rest of the course, the RO can get at accurate last shot fired time.

For self-start, I don't remember the location, but one stage used a telephone going on-hook or off-hook wired to start the timer, which was located near the end of the COF to pick up the last shot. May have been Yuma Match Masters. Have also seen a small speed shoot stage with the timer attached to a table, shooter pressed start with strong hand.

One caveat with this approach ... If the shooter's gun craps out in the middle of the CoF, it's entirely possible the timer will not pick up his last shot. As there will be no accurate time recorded, the shooter will get a reshoot as the stage cannot be properly scored.

I seem to recall, however, that one or more of the timers out there will allow you to "unplug" the start signal device from the timer while it is running without affecting the function of the timer. Then, the RO can carry it with himself as he goes. Food for thought.

As to a visual start ... I've seen several. The most obvious are turning targets on a FT Standards. But ... there's no reason they have to be FT. Simply set the targets to "appear" and remain there and that will signal the start.

I've also seen a running target coming out from behind a wall for a start and various forms of lights used. What I'd LIKE to have is a 105 going off behind the shooter as a start signal ... THAT would get some attention! (Problem is, it'd be so darned expensive for the blank 105 rounds ...)

[Jim Norman]

At the Double Tap Flintstones Match there was a stage shoot from a table, You played the part of Bam-Bam and whacked something with your club to start the timer. Since you never left the table, the timer picked up the shots. I remember people that stood there after the Stand-by for an extended time waiting for the beep and then they remember they have to start by swinging the club.

Jim

[aztecdriver]

Removed my own post, because I'm done arguing.

Also I remembered why I'm carrying less and less about USPSA rules, with stuff being invented but not actually put in the rule book. If NROI want this to be a rule the make it a rule and use random start on the timer, they all have it now. Take the RO out of equation because now I can favor my buddies with "random" instead of using constant.

I'm going to continue with one additional response - mainly because this is one that has a bit of content we can talk about - and I'll do so very respectfully - so I'll ask you please take it that way.

There's nothing in the rulebook that say's you CAN'T be consistent or you MUST do it randomly. I consider this a discussion in what is an appropriate and professional way to administrate a course of fire. There's no RULE that says you must adhere to the NROI RO Creed - but that's exactly what *I* am talking about.

Another example of this is there is no rule that you must change targets between every 3 squads, yet, that is typically what I setup as a policy as CRO on a stage - to be able to properly score targets with proper amount of evidence, etc. Likewise, there is no rule that says that we should check and administrate steel in between squads or shooters to avoid steel getting heavier during the day and inviting a calibration challenge and reshoot. We have rules that deal with the results of such things - but no rule that dictates we do things to avoid these situations. (Some might be able to point to the consistent challenge provisions - and I'll concede that so save the bandwidth).

The point that we have all made is that while the challenge should be presented consistently to the shooter, the result of random start signals within the 1-4 second time period yields consistency so that ALL shooters MUST wait to HEAR the start signal to begin. By being consistent with a time - you will have those that start first on the squad that must wait to HEAR the signal, and those later in the squad that will be able to count to themselves and start when they know the start signal is coming. Yeah, they'll dance on the edge of getting dinged with creeping, but that is going to be less of a chance if they have your timing down. The point is that if everyone must listen for the beep, then the consistency of the stage is maintained.

This is also akin to the thought process that all shooter MUST start in the EXACT same position in order to maintain consistency - and that contention does not exist in the rule book either - yet, we see this on a regular basis from a number of CROs. If a start position is at a wall and reads "facing downrange, palms flat on X's", as long as my palms are on the Xs properly and I'm facing the direction of down range - I should be free to slide my feet, lean, turn my head, etc. to gain whatever advantage while being in compliance with the required start position. Yet, there are several out there that say no, everyone must be in the exact position for "consistency". This I wholeheartedly disagree with. There are those that apply consistency without the application of Freestyle or the understanding that the start of the COF is the "audible" start signal, not a specific time interval.

You contend that doing a random start between a 1-4 second time is an advantage to their "buddies" and I fail to see the logic in that. How can any particular group gain an advantage if they don't know when exactly the start signal is coming? Maybe you are talking about local matches - and in that case - I would agree, if an RO is doing 1 second then 4 seconds for everyone else but everyone of his friends gets 2 seconds they can count on - sure, that's a clear issue - but there are other rules for that than 8.3.3. It's cheating. That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about major matches where every shooter gets a different interval from standby to start signal. 1.5, 4, 2.5, 1, 3.5, 2. Done properly, every shooter expects that they'll have to wait to hear the signal and then start. Which is completely consistent as it pertains to the COF, time and score. When done completely consistently, you are inviting - and actually creating a disservice to the shooter if you ding them with procedurals for creeping if you start them just a hair later than you had been doing everyone else - or allowing an advantage for those that jumped the signal just slightly and you could not perceive the movement because it was within that R/T area where you were focused on pushing the button and not so much on whether they're hand was moving.

You are RIGHT in that there is no rule against it. As I said, if you want to be consistent on the timer, as a shooter, I'm going to take advantage of it. As a duly certified CRO of NROI, I will tell you that I feel it is against the interests of assisting all competitors to achieve their goals during the COF by either allowing opposing competitors an advantage or hindering them by creating a situation that invites penalties.

I'm going on vacation now, and we can agree not to argue about the rules anymore. I agree with you, it's not in the rules. It's a matter of professionally managing the stage.

[Sarge]

and I'll do so very respectfully - so I'll ask you please take it that way. Sounds like you are very respectfully telling those that disagree with you that they are substandard RO's. Sorry ,but that IS how it reads.

I consider this a discussion in what is an appropriate and professional way to administrate a course of fire. While I have not argued the point to the level of showing disrespect I too disagree with you and the others on this. So does that lump me into the CRO pool that does not know how to professionally administrate a COF?

There's no RULE that says you must adhere to the NROI RO Creed - but that's exactly what *I* am talking about. Fairly inflammatory. Just because there is a disagreement with you does not make you the only one who adheres to the creed.

It's a matter of professionally managing the stage. Again with the assumption that taking a different stance equals unprofessional stage management.

I realize you may have been directing this at one individual but you are in an open forum not in a PM. So this makes your comments pretty broad. You are just as wound up over your stance as the other guy but for some reason you choose to feel compelled to tell him (and others) that your word is gospel and should be obeyed or we are unprofessional.

[hvsmith]

Just a basic thought & somewhat comparible situation. The quarterback must have every snap on one - if the defensive end KNOWS the snap count, the QB won't last the first half. By mixing his count up, it keeps everyone honest & forces the defense to react to the snap, not at a pre-determined count - I would think that having the timer go off between 1-4 seconds is only going to keep everyone honest & react to the beep.

[Sin-ster]

By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started.

Ah, but has it-- by the strict letter of the rule?

8.3.4

"Start Signal"-- The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?".

I bolded the most pertinent words and phrases, as therein lies the ambiguity.

Is a "twitch" indicative of me beginning the CoF? I twitch when I hear rounds touching off in the next bay; I twitch when I hear them zipping around the top of the berm; I twitch when a fly lands on my nose; I twitch when I've got an itch in a "sensitive area".

More logically, the drawing of the pistol, movement of the feet out of the start position (or hands, if in a non-conventional start position), or even the firing of the first shot is indisputable evidence that I've begun the CoF. In fact, I would argue that it's the first shot only, as it's used in other portions of the Rule Book as a defining moment (i.e. reshoot or scored stage in the case of a malfunction).

Also note the "react" and "for any reason". It doesn't say anything about not hearing the start signal, but in fact gives the shooter full leeway to not react at all. Maybe they just didn't feel like moving-- that counts as "any reason". I won't go into the full implications of that rule, as it's written, but... there's a lot of room for the shooter.

Not sure where you see the ambiguity.

8.3.4 says: “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any

reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”.

I said "By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started."

With mild paraphrasing, the rules say if the competitor doesn't react, the COF hasn't started. I said if he does react, it has.

Where's the ambiguity?

First, another rule I found:

9.10.3

"A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officers will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire."

Which definitely seems to support your position-- "gotcha" though it may be.

So now, to simply sum up the ambiguity. I suppose "react" means as little as twitch, as you suggest.

But am I twitching/reacting to the start signal? Or one of the eleventy-billion other possible causes for a twitch-- including trying to jump the buzzer? Drawing, leaving the start position and taking the first shot are all obviously reactions to the start signal-- but I have to be a statue otherwise?

Of course, this opens up a lot of doors. If I twitch even the slightest bit just before the start signal, and then go ahead with the draw and CoF, should I be stopped for a False Start-- since a twitch can indicate the starting of the CoF?

Or is that just creeping before the start signal-- and depending on the millisecond timing, requires holding off on the Signal or a Procedural?

How's about just not short beeping-- and if it happens by accident, and the shooter doesn't obviously begin the CoF, start over again from "Are You Ready?"

[mhs]

By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started.

Ah, but has it-- by the strict letter of the rule?

8.3.4

"Start Signal"-- The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?".

I bolded the most pertinent words and phrases, as therein lies the ambiguity.

Is a "twitch" indicative of me beginning the CoF? I twitch when I hear rounds touching off in the next bay; I twitch when I hear them zipping around the top of the berm; I twitch when a fly lands on my nose; I twitch when I've got an itch in a "sensitive area".

More logically, the drawing of the pistol, movement of the feet out of the start position (or hands, if in a non-conventional start position), or even the firing of the first shot is indisputable evidence that I've begun the CoF. In fact, I would argue that it's the first shot only, as it's used in other portions of the Rule Book as a defining moment (i.e. reshoot or scored stage in the case of a malfunction).

Also note the "react" and "for any reason". It doesn't say anything about not hearing the start signal, but in fact gives the shooter full leeway to not react at all. Maybe they just didn't feel like moving-- that counts as "any reason". I won't go into the full implications of that rule, as it's written, but... there's a lot of room for the shooter.

Not sure where you see the ambiguity.

8.3.4 says: “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any

reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”.

I said "By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started."

With mild paraphrasing, the rules say if the competitor doesn't react, the COF hasn't started. I said if he does react, it has.

Where's the ambiguity?

First, another rule I found:

9.10.3

"A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officers will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire."

Which definitely seems to support your position-- "gotcha" though it may be.

So now, to simply sum up the ambiguity. I suppose "react" means as little as twitch, as you suggest.

But am I twitching/reacting to the start signal? Or one of the eleventy-billion other possible causes for a twitch-- including trying to jump the buzzer? Drawing, leaving the start position and taking the first shot are all obviously reactions to the start signal-- but I have to be a statue otherwise?

Of course, this opens up a lot of doors. If I twitch even the slightest bit just before the start signal, and then go ahead with the draw and CoF, should I be stopped for a False Start-- since a twitch can indicate the starting of the CoF?

Or is that just creeping before the start signal-- and depending on the millisecond timing, requires holding off on the Signal or a Procedural?

How's about just not short beeping-- and if it happens by accident, and the shooter doesn't obviously begin the CoF, start over again from "Are You Ready?"

If you have read and comprehended this thread, you know that I was asking about a reaction to a start signal, even if the RO only "sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep?" Note that I specified "in response to the beep".

As are many things in our sport, this is a judgement call. If the RO judges you to have reacted to the beep, the COF has started.

[Sin-ster]

If you have read and comprehended this thread, you know that I was asking about a reaction to a start signal, even if the RO only "sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep?" Note that I specified "in response to the beep".

As are many things in our sport, this is a judgement call. If the RO judges you to have reacted to the beep, the COF has started.

Trust me-- I get what you're saying. At first I was going to contend with the assumption that a twitch could be considered the start of the CoF-- but I agree with you on that point now. Per the rules, a twitch *in response to the start signal* is indeed all it takes.

And it's obviously a judgement call-- that could easily be eliminated with properly worded rules. (That's to say that leaving this as a judgement call wasn't the initial intention, of course...)

I think that the vast majority of ROs are on the side of the shooter, as they are shooters themselves above all else. And in that vein, a short beep will almost certainly have been an accident, and the shooter is going to get the benefit of the doubt on his twitch.

There are of course Napoleons out there who are trying to mess with the shooter, even if it's not entirely malicious. ("He jumps my start, so on this stage I'll give him 5 seconds, and on the next, I'll beep him almost right away.") And you can almost guarantee that said RO will *definitely* have a problem with the shooter not reacting to their short beep, and look for each and every little thing to prove a "reaction to the timer". (Will that stand up to Arb? Who knows!)

And therein lies the problem with a judgement call when one isn't necessary. A simple definition of "react" in the Glossary, an addition of a few phrases to the rule, or a stipulation that the 1-4 second range is a requirement and not a suggestion-- any of these options would clear things up most ricky-tick.

What are we striving for here anyway? "Equal opportunity for all competitors", I would hope. Even if that means being as forgiving as possible to the shooter, at least it's consistent for everyone.

[aztecdriver]

and I'll do so very respectfully - so I'll ask you please take it that way. Sounds like you are very respectfully telling those that disagree with you that they are substandard RO's. Sorry ,but that IS how it reads.

I consider this a discussion in what is an appropriate and professional way to administrate a course of fire. While I have not argued the point to the level of showing disrespect I too disagree with you and the others on this. So does that lump me into the CRO pool that does not know how to professionally administrate a COF?

There's no RULE that says you must adhere to the NROI RO Creed - but that's exactly what *I* am talking about. Fairly inflammatory. Just because there is a disagreement with you does not make you the only one who adheres to the creed.

It's a matter of professionally managing the stage. Again with the assumption that taking a different stance equals unprofessional stage management.

I realize you may have been directing this at one individual but you are in an open forum not in a PM. So this makes your comments pretty broad. You are just as wound up over your stance as the other guy but for some reason you choose to feel compelled to tell him (and others) that your word is gospel and should be obeyed or we are unprofessional.

Sarge,

If you take it that way, so be it. I'm kind of sick and tired of playing kid games to make sure people aren't being offended about how I phrase stuff, so honesty, whatever you want to feel, go for it. Professionalism comes from many levels of attention to detail. This is only one. There are much more important components that go into it, but I was just pointing out that you don't need a rule in this space to address this argument.

And yes, if you are running the clock with a constant 2 seconds, everyone's run is not consistent for the reasons already given you by nik. So it's less professionally run.

If that offends and inflames, I apologize, but I know of no other way to describe it. And no, pm is not the place I am going to have this discussion.

[Sarge]

Deleted.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Sarge

[ima45dv8]

When a thread turns from discussing the issue at hand to discussing each other, there's no value in keeping it open.

Y'all take it to a PM, or not, but that's quite enough of the personal stuff here.

Thanks...

[sidnal]

Conversely, I always try to vary the time that I wait so that shooters don't catch on to a pattern and get an advantage on the start.

Me, too.

+1.

[High Lord Gomer]

... alligator, rubber goldfish, ...

Interesting train of thoughts swirling in your head. "I wanna party with you, dude!"

[Paul Santiago]

When I'm running shooters I try to be consistenly between 1 to 4 seconds. What is irritating to me is hearing the "BEEP" before the word "Standby" has finished or hearing "StandbyeeeeBEEP".

I'm guessing most shooters have trained themselves to react to the "Beep" so just standing there on a short beep seems to go against our training.

It seems to be a simple thing to clarify in the rule book by simply stating the start will be a minimum of 1 second to a maximum of 4 seconds after the "Standby" command.

JMHO

[Flexmoney]

Until this thread, I thought it was clear.

[Paul Santiago]

Until this thread, I thought it was clear.

As did I.

[lcs]

When I'm running shooters I try to be consistenly between 1 to 4 seconds. What is irritating to me is hearing the "BEEP" before the word "Standby" has finished or hearing "StandbyeeeeBEEP".

I'm guessing most shooters have trained themselves to react to the "Beep" so just standing there on a short beep seems to go against our training.

It seems to be a simple thing to clarify in the rule book by simply stating the start will be a minimum of 1 second to a maximum of 4 seconds after the "Standby" command.

JMHO

Maybe not so simple. Couple of no shoots and I request a re-shoot because you took 6 seconds.

My reason for starting this thread was several people taking the RO class got the impression the whole 1-4 seconds was "recommended". IMO the "recommended" only applies to the time interval, not the rule. In other words, 1 second is not the rule, 2 seconds is not the rule, 3 seconds is not the rule, nor 4 seconds, but recommended 1 to 4 seconds.

[Paul Santiago]

When I'm running shooters I try to be consistenly between 1 to 4 seconds. What is irritating to me is hearing the "BEEP" before the word "Standby" has finished or hearing "StandbyeeeeBEEP".

I'm guessing most shooters have trained themselves to react to the "Beep" so just standing there on a short beep seems to go against our training.

It seems to be a simple thing to clarify in the rule book by simply stating the start will be a minimum of 1 second to a maximum of 4 seconds after the "Standby" command.

JMHO

Maybe not so simple. Couple of no shoots and I request a re-shoot because you took 6 seconds.

My reason for starting this thread was several people taking the RO class got the impression the whole 1-4 seconds was "recommended". IMO the "recommended" only applies to the time interval, not the rule. In other words, 1 second is not the rule, 2 seconds is not the rule, 3 seconds is not the rule, nor 4 seconds, but recommended 1 to 4 seconds.

My response to that would be, you should have said something at the start.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Paul Santiago

[Micah]

My response is no response to a severe buzzed jump.

[Skydiver]

The thing that puzzles me is that we strive, in so many ways, to run things exactly the same way from shooter to shooter, from state to state, from Area to Area. We call it equity.

Yet is seems fair to start 3 guys on a squad at 4 seconds and then start the next guy in 1?

Exactly the same , in this regard, is random...between 1-4 seconds.

I wish more of our RO's ran shooters in Steel Challenge. Actually...I wish Steel Challenge RO's used "random" a bit more...randomly. With 5 draws per stage...that really count...I can gain a REAL time on the match if the RO is running the beep at the same interval all day long. I will get his/her timing. It will benefit me.

Until I saw the video in the weird surrender position thread, I didn't really get the full impact of Flex's comment above. Knowing the RO's cadence and knowing that the RO will hit the start button pretty quickly after the standby seems to allow the competitor to crunch up his abs and bring his hips up. Now imagine letting the shooter hang there not breathing and with his abs crunched for an unknown 1-4 seconds... Suddenly, it seems like a fairer start.

[Flexmoney]

Yeah, I'd like to see all the 0.60 second draws when the timer is on random between 1 & 4 seconds. Certainly not saying it isn't possible. Not saying anybody isn't amazingly fast and efficient.

What I AM saying is that...if a shooter can go for it, without fear of getting hit with a penalty for creeping...then they can gain a quarter or more per stage in a Steel Challenge match. Random makes the shooter have to listen for the audible start beep...which is how it supposed to work. We write that into our USPSA stage briefings. The start is AUDIBLE, not cadence.

[ac4wordplay]

We write that into our USPSA stage briefings. The start is AUDIBLE, not cadence.

This is a good and interesting point.

Thanks Flex.