p7fl Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Our range design forces us to shoot 4 stages on a shared line. The debate between 2 CROs is the term “single location.” I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location. Thoughts? 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all thx jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Our range design forces us to shoot 4 stages on a shared line. The debate between 2 CROs is the term "single location." I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location. Thoughts? 1.2.1.3 "Long Courses" in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all thx jon Single location means where you are standing. Moving the feet puts you in a new location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 This topic has been discussed many times ... Try reading some of the following for insight: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141429 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=131976 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129366 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=129446 They may not fully answer your question, but they should be a start ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p7fl Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Yup, saw those threads before I posted. Does everyone agree Sarge is correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I would think there would need to be a change in the targets that were available from the new position. If you can see 8 targets from point A, take 2 steps and you can only see the same 8 targets I don't think that qualifies as a change in location or view. This would assume those 8 targets aren't available from any other locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 10ft is not one location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Our range design forces us to shoot 4 stages on a shared line. The debate between 2 CROs is the term “single location.” I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location. Thoughts? 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all thx jon The rule book gives us this... "Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .A geographical place within a course of fire." I would argue that if you moved your feet to get there you are now in a different location. While you didn't fully describe the stage, keep in mind that if it is a "Long Course" and you can engage all of the targets in that stage from one position that the stage is not legal anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Does everyone agree Sarge is correct? Basically, yes, but bear in mind that the rule refers to a single location or view. You can stand in a single location and shoot all the targets as long as there is more than one view. For example, a 16 round stage a wall with a high and a low port where half the targets are visible through each port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Yup, saw those threads before I posted. Does everyone agree Sarge is correct? No ... Per previous postings by various RMI's and per information from the DNROI, I do not agree with Sarge's definition. I would, however, prefer one of them to address this question more specifically as it is above my pay grade. (i.e., I'd rather folks quote one of them rather than me!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Yup, saw those threads before I posted. Does everyone agree Sarge is correct? No ... Per previous postings by various RMI's and per information from the DNROI, I do not agree with Sarge's definition. I would, however, prefer one of them to address this question more specifically as it is above my pay grade. (i.e., I'd rather folks quote one of them rather than me!!!) I'm hoping somebody speaks up as well. Because a location is only one place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Our range design forces us to shoot 4 stages on a shared line. The debate between 2 CROs is the term “single location.” I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location. Thoughts? 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all thx jon First you are talking about 4 different stages in a long line and the rule you quoted is based on a single stage. Easily corrected by using a pair of fault lines with a space between them to delinate one stage from the next. Or a single WSB could be written if the round count is kept under 32 to say targets 1-4 are shot from position A, targets 5-8 are shot from position B, etc. The main consideration is the 8 hits because it is unlikely you could ever get Level III blessing at your current location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 To me the defining part of the rule is "View". If the shooting area is 10' by 10' and ALL targets are available from anywhere within the shooting area with the shooter doing nothing more than swiveling their head and arms then you have one view and an illegal stage. Forcing the shooter to at least move their lower body, even if it is nothing more than bending their knees to move their upper bodies position makes it legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p7fl Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) As the OP, if we cannot agree on the definition of Location, can we turn to the spirit of the rule? Edited March 27, 2012 by p7fl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Those the definition of "movement" help further define a location: Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ageographical place within a course of fire. Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Those the definition of "movement" help further define a location: Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ageographical place within a course of fire. Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) I was specifically told on a stage design I submitted for a sectional match that shooting six shots on target #'s 1, 2, and 3, then kneeling at the same spot, w/o needing to change foot position, to put four more shots on target #'s 4 and 5, with each array only visible from the one location and in those two shooting positions (as defined by the rules) was not legal, as ten shots were being taken from one location and view (neither view was through a port). fwiw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Those the definition of "movement" help further define a location: Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ageographical place within a course of fire. Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) I was specifically told on a stage design I submitted for a sectional match that shooting six shots on target #'s 1, 2, and 3, then kneeling at the same spot, w/o needing to change foot position, to put four more shots on target #'s 4 and 5, with each array only visible from the one location and in those two shooting positions (as defined by the rules) was not legal, as ten shots were being taken from one location and view (neither view was through a port). fwiw Was the WSB written to reflect engaging T1-T3 standing and T4 and T5 kneeling with all targets visible from both positions? If so it was illegal because you cannot specify going from standing to kneeling in the WSB, you must force it through the use of barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Please read this thread: Speed Shoot. There is quite a bit of discussion about the issue of single location or view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Our range design forces us to shoot 4 stages on a shared line. The debate between 2 CROs is the term “single location.” I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location. Thoughts? 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all thx jon back to the original question I would say that if all the targets are visible the entire width of your shooting area then it is not a legal stage, but if by using props (a couple of barrels for instance) you can not see all the targets from one spot in the shooting area then it is good to go. a example would be having one target that is obscured by a barrel that can only be seen from the extreme left of the shooting area and one that can only be seen from the extreme right of the shooting area, all the other targets can be seen anywhere. this fits the rules as you are not required to shoot more than 8 shots without moving and you can't shoot all the targets from one location. I think people get hung up on "Require" which is not the same as "Allow" as long as a stage has a way that the targets could be engaged without shooting more than 8 from 1 location and does not allow you to shoot all the targets from any 1 location then you are good to go. I also agree with Sarge if you take a step you are in a new location. (think about the 3x3 shooting boxes we use all the time a 10' line could have 3 of them lined up in a row that would be 3 locations right) now there is one more item the OP was asking about a level 1 match so there is a freestyle exception and the WSB could direct the shooter to shoot certain targets from certain locations so if the 10' shooting area was split into 3, 3' shooting areas and the WSB said shoot T1-T4 from box A and T5-T8 from box B and T9-T12 from box C that would be allowable. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 [...] I also agree with Sarge if you take a step you are in a new location. (think about the 3x3 shooting boxes we use all the time a 10' line could have 3 of them lined up in a row that would be 3 locations right) [...] But also consider this ... I think the vast majority of us would agree that a 3x3 box is one and only one location. What Sarge said was "Single location means where you are standing. Moving the feet puts you in a new location." I don't know about you, but I can move my feet to several different places within that 3x3 box. By so doing, have I REALLY changed my location? I don't think so. (Sorry to pick on your definition, Sarge, but I think you see where I'm going with this.) If you agree with the above analysis, where do you draw the line? A 4x4 box? 5x5? 10x10? Hopefully you see what I mean. In past years, and still allowed for Level I matches, you could have multiple boxes and require the shooter to shoot from each of them at specific targets. In this instance, I would agree each box consitutes a different location ... regardless if you have to take 1 step inbetween or 10. DNROI's guidance to the RMs was along the lines of the entire shooting area is one shooting location. (Hence, what needs to change is the view.) I might argue that if you have to open a door and pass through the door, that could be called a new location - but now we're picking at nits. The key thing to keep in mind is that there really should be no "place" in a CoF that a shooter is required to fire more than 8 rounds. One example given previously is to put one target behind a vision barrier on the left side, a bunch of targets in the middle, and one target behind a vision barrier on the right side. OK ... Let's make this a 32 round CoF! That's 2 shots on the left ... 28 shots up the middle while covering some unspecified amount of ground, and 2 shots on the right. Sorry folks - Under NO circumstance would I approve that as a legal CoF. That portion up the middle is one location (be it 3' wide or 30') and one view ... with 28 rounds. It simply doesn't fly. Break up the middle portion! For anyone who is interested, there was a parallel discussion on the GV about the same topic. Keep in mind, the IPSC rules are almost identical to ours ... the principle difference is their majic number is 9 while ours is 8. If you would like to review the discussion, it can be found at: http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=13685 While reading this, please note that Mr Pinto's position (about half way through) was disputed by several people. In conclusion, though Mr Pinto has chosen to stick to his guns, the Chief Course Reviewer for IPSC (Doug Lewis) and the President of IPSC (Nick Alexakos) disagreed with Vince's position and supported the opposing view. While I grant IPSC is no longer "ruling" WRT USPSA, the information is, nevertheless, insightful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 People are making this harder than it is. 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 both say, "Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view." The OP said, "I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location." Neither of these answers is correct, they are confusing shooting area with location. You can have one large continuous shooting area, like the 10' long area described without that being a single location. It all depends on how it is set up. Imagine a design where you start at either end of the 10' area. One one end there is a target behind a barrel that can only been shot from that location. Same thing at the other end. In between there are 12 targets that can be seen from anywhere within the shooting area. This is a legal stage because both of the criteria are met. Not all the targets can be shot from one location (you have to move 10' to get that last target) and there is no one place where you must stand and shoot more than shots (you MAY do so but you do not have to). Further, you can have a single location like a barricade, but if you arrange the targets and props so that the shooter is forced to shoot at least one target from each side of the barricade, then you have met the criteria for multiple views. Like I said, this was gone over in detail in the Speed Shoot thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 DNROI's guidance to the RMs.... ....has not been published to the general membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The key thing to keep in mind is that there really should be no "place" in a CoF that a shooter is required to fire more than 8 rounds. One example given previously is to put one target behind a vision barrier on the left side, a bunch of targets in the middle, and one target behind a vision barrier on the right side. OK ... Let's make this a 32 round CoF! That's 2 shots on the left ... 28 shots up the middle while covering some unspecified amount of ground, and 2 shots on the right. Sorry folks - Under NO circumstance would I approve that as a legal CoF. That portion up the middle is one location (be it 3' wide or 30') and one view ... with 28 rounds. It simply doesn't fly. Break up the middle portion! I partly disagree about having to break up the middle -- as long as movement gets you a closer, better view of the targets. Yep, an open shooter with a big stick might shoot from fewer locations, but a production or SS shooter has the option of getting better angles/closer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 People are making this harder than it is. 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 both say, "Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view." The OP said, "I shoot Single Stack and say that a shooting location even if it is 10 feet long is a single location. The other CRO says if you can see all the targets and move within the area to reload, it is not a single location." Neither of these answers is correct, they are confusing shooting area with location. You can have one large continuous shooting area, like the 10' long area described without that being a single location. It all depends on how it is set up. Imagine a design where you start at either end of the 10' area. One one end there is a target behind a barrel that can only been shot from that location. Same thing at the other end. In between there are 12 targets that can be seen from anywhere within the shooting area. This is a legal stage because both of the criteria are met. Not all the targets can be shot from one location (you have to move 10' to get that last target) and there is no one place where you must stand and shoot more than shots (you MAY do so but you do not have to). Further, you can have a single location like a barricade, but if you arrange the targets and props so that the shooter is forced to shoot at least one target from each side of the barricade, then you have met the criteria for multiple views. Like I said, this was gone over in detail in the Speed Shoot thread. Graham said pretty much what I was thinking..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 DNROI's guidance to the RMs.... ....has not been published to the general membership. Acknowledged ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Those the definition of "movement" help further define a location: Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ageographical place within a course of fire. Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) I was specifically told on a stage design I submitted for a sectional match that shooting six shots on target #'s 1, 2, and 3, then kneeling at the same spot, w/o needing to change foot position, to put four more shots on target #'s 4 and 5, with each array only visible from the one location and in those two shooting positions (as defined by the rules) was not legal, as ten shots were being taken from one location and view (neither view was through a port). fwiw Was the WSB written to reflect engaging T1-T3 standing and T4 and T5 kneeling with all targets visible from both positions? If so it was illegal because you cannot specify going from standing to kneeling in the WSB, you must force it through the use of barriers. No such language in the WSB. The stage designed involved a suspended half barricade, blocked on top, open on the bottom. Standing in the shooting area next to the barricade, you could see T1-3 opposite you, then by kneeling to see under the barricade, you could see T4-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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