Does a shot without a trigger pull equal a malfunction?

[remoandiris]

At Make Ready, a competitor inserts mag and racks the slide with finger clearly outside the trigger guard. Gun fires a shot. Could that be considered a malfunction under 5.7.1, a DQ under 10.4.3, or something else?

Edited March 18, 2012 by remoandiris

[Sarge]

It's a DQ based on the definition of a shot in the rule book.

Shot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of

a firearm.

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

A competitor who causes an accidental discharge must be stopped by a Range

Officer as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction,46 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition

specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being

unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).

10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except

when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

10.4.2.1 Exception — A bullet which strikes the ground within 10 feet of

the competitor due to a "squib".

10.4.2.2 In the case of a shot striking a prop where the bullet is deflected

or does not continue to strike the ground, if the Range Official

determines that the bullet would have struck the ground within

10 feet of the competitor had it not been deflected or stopped by

the prop, the provisions of 10.4.2 shall apply.

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule

8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

10.4.3.1 Exception – a detonation, which occurs while unloading a handgun, is not considered a shot or discharge subject to a match disqualification, however, Rule 5.1.6 may apply.

10.4.4 A shot which occurs during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.

10.4.5 A shot which occurs while transferring a handgun between hands.

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting

at targets.

5.7.1 concerns malfunctions that make the gun unservicable.

I know this because this happened last year while I was ROing a state level match. It was handled incorrectly.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Sarge

[aztecdriver]

^^^^ This... There's no other way about it. The rules are clear on this one. Even if the malfunction comes into play...:

5.7.1 A competitor who experiences a handgun malfunction while responding to the “Make Ready” command, but prior to issuance of the “Start Signal”, is entitled to retire to repair his handgun without penalty, under the authority and supervision of the officiating Range Officer and subject to the provisions of Rule 5.7.5, Rule 8.3.1.1, and all other safety rules. Once the repairs have been completed (and the provisions of Rule 5.1.7 have been satisfied, if applicable), the competitor may return to attempt the course of fire, subject to scheduling as determined by the officiating Range Officer or Range Master.

[remoandiris]

Do you see a contradiction in 10.4.3 and 5.7.1? One says DQ and the other says no penalty. There is no definition of "malfunction". A shot without a trigger pull seems to be a malfunction.

Edited March 18, 2012 by remoandiris

[Sarge]

Even though the shot was the result of a malf it was still a shot none the less.

[motosapiens]

I don't see a contradiction. I believe most malfunctions don't result in a slam-fire, so I think those non-dq malfunctions are what 5.7.1 refers to.

Since there is no exemption under 5.7.1 that would allow an AD without a DQ, it is clear that the DQ must still apply. 10.4.3 is very specific in that an AD while responding to 'make ready' is a dq.

[remoandiris]

Even though the shot was the result of a malf it was still a shot none the less.

Agreed. Which rule has priority? One says DQ the other says no penalty. Is this a case of letting the RM decide?

[bbbean]

At Make Ready, a competitor inserts mag and racks the slide with finger clearly outside the trigger guard. Gun fires a shot. Could that be considered a malfunction under 5.7.1, a DQ under 10.4.3, or something else?

It's a DQ, pure and simple. As others have pointed out, it's a shot fired, regardless of the reason. Basically the idea is that you're on the hook to bring a safe weapon.

FWIW, I earned a DQ for the same problem when my gun developed hammer follow on match day. At the time, I thought it might have been a malfunction, but running it up the chain at NROI cleared that misconception up for me.

BB

[twodownzero]

Do you see a contradiction in 10.4.3 and 5.7.1? One says DQ and the other says no penalty. There is no definition of "malfunction". A shot without a trigger pull seems to be a malfunction.

There is no contradiction. If you have a malfunction, you can repair it and continue to shoot the match. That is not the case if you're disqualified. Once disqualified, a competitor cannot continue to participate.

Even though the shot was the result of a malf it was still a shot none the less.

Agreed. Which rule has priority? One says DQ the other says no penalty. Is this a case of letting the RM decide?

If you agree, then there's nothing to decide. The instant a shot goes off while loading the handgun, the shooter is disqualified. Once disqualified, it's irrelevant whether the shot was due to a "malfunction" or anything else for that matter, as the shooter can no longer participate in the match.

This is not an issue of a rule having "priority," but rather, defining what "disqualification" means. If a shooter does anything that results in a disqualification, other facts or rules that might hypothetically apply in the absence of that DQ have no bearing on the outcome.

Case in point, what if the shooter was DQed on the last shot of the last stage, and still had enough points to be the winner, had he not DQed. This would also be irrelevant, as a DQed shooter cannot win the match, and so there's no issue of priority, it's just that a DQ makes basically everything else that a shooter did during the match irrelevant. If somehow that DQ were overturned, the shooter would have to reshoot the stage he DQed on, and if it turned out that he didn't score enough points to win, his previous performance would be likewise irrelevant.

Edited March 18, 2012 by twodownzero

[jdphotoguy]

I'd have to go with gun malfunction myself, so I don't believe the shooter should be disqualified.

[Sarge]

We can not apply the rules to support what we believe.

[aztecdriver]

I'd have to go with gun malfunction myself, so I don't believe the shooter should be disqualified.

Why and by what reasoning in the rules... I've already outlined why the malfunction repair help 5.7.1 is completely trumped by 10.4.3, and as written into 5.7.1...

and subject to the provisions of Rule 5.7.5, Rule 8.3.1.1, and all other safety rules.

It says all other... by what reason does a shot during 8.3.1 NOT equal a disqualification then?

[coldchar]

Agree, definite DQ, However, if the finger was definitely off the trigger, the gun needs to be checked.

Jim G

[remoandiris]

Do you see a contradiction in 10.4.3 and 5.7.1? One says DQ and the other says no penalty. There is no definition of "malfunction". A shot without a trigger pull seems to be a malfunction.

There is no contradiction. If you have a malfunction, you can repair it and continue to shoot the match. That is not the case if you're disqualified. Once disqualified, a competitor cannot continue to participate.

Even though the shot was the result of a malf it was still a shot none the less.

Agreed. Which rule has priority? One says DQ the other says no penalty. Is this a case of letting the RM decide?

If you agree, then there's nothing to decide. The instant a shot goes off while loading the handgun, the shooter is disqualified. Once disqualified, it's irrelevant whether the shot was due to a "malfunction" or anything else for that matter, as the shooter can no longer participate in the match.

This is not an issue of a rule having "priority," but rather, defining what "disqualification" means. If a shooter does anything that results in a disqualification, other facts or rules that might hypothetically apply in the absence of that DQ have no bearing on the outcome.

I agree it was a shot. But I also see a contradiction in the rulebook.

[remoandiris]

If the shooter feels they have a legit argument, they can arbitrate. The committee may stand behind 10.4.3 or they may say it was a malf under 5.7.1. I see validity in both sides and believe the RM or committee could come down on either side.

Is there a requirement to make the gun malf again to prove it was a gun malf vs an ammo malf? I didn't see anything in the book to that effect. Yes, it is each competitor's responsibility to uise safe equipment. Like all things mechanical, they break...sometimes at the most inopportune moments.

[sperman]

What if the malfunction caused you to break the 180, or drop the handgun. Would you still think there was a contradiction?

[coldchar]

I don't think the malfunction arguement is valid. The shooter is the only one responsible for the operation/condition of the gun. If the sear/hammer engagement has a problem or the ejector is an issue, still his responsibility and still a hazard that resulted in the AD.

Jim

[LPatterson]

In this circumstance I would be in support of the DQ because the gun fired during loading. A malfunction (per 5.7.1) would be where the gun was not capable of being fired or a sight fell off or the dot won't turn on.

[Sarge]

What if the malfunction caused you to break the 180, or drop the handgun. Would you still think there was a contradiction?

I actually tried to think of a way to make this analogy.

What if you racked the slide and it flew off the front of the frame? When you tried to catch it it caused you to drop the rest of the gun or caught the upper with the muzzle pointing at you.

Another example would be a double charge causing you to drop the gun when it exploded. The double charge might call your ammo into question but you still dropped the gun. And got DQ'd.

[vluc]

We had a shooter last season who's pistol did not go into battery completely. Finger outside the trigger guard, he rapped the back of the slide with his other hand to put it fully into battery and gun discharged.

DQ.

[motosapiens]

Do you see a contradiction in 10.4.3 and 5.7.1? One says DQ and the other says no penalty. There is no definition of "malfunction". A shot without a trigger pull seems to be a malfunction.

There is no contradiction. If you have a malfunction, you can repair it and continue to shoot the match. That is not the case if you're disqualified. Once disqualified, a competitor cannot continue to participate.

Even though the shot was the result of a malf it was still a shot none the less.

Agreed. Which rule has priority? One says DQ the other says no penalty. Is this a case of letting the RM decide?

If you agree, then there's nothing to decide. The instant a shot goes off while loading the handgun, the shooter is disqualified. Once disqualified, it's irrelevant whether the shot was due to a "malfunction" or anything else for that matter, as the shooter can no longer participate in the match.

This is not an issue of a rule having "priority," but rather, defining what "disqualification" means. If a shooter does anything that results in a disqualification, other facts or rules that might hypothetically apply in the absence of that DQ have no bearing on the outcome.

I agree it was a shot. But I also see a contradiction in the rulebook.

with all due respect, I believe the contradiction exists only in your mind. the rulebook seems very clear to me. 5.7.1 does NOT say that if the gun has a malfunction, the shooter has an excuse for a DQ action. What it says is that if the shooter has a malfunction before the 'stand by' command (and doesn't otherwise dq by ignoring the RO, leaving the line with a loaded gun, or violating any other safety rule, like having an AD), then the shooter can leave the line (after unloading and showing clear under RO supervision, of course), fix the malfunction, and start over, with no penalty for having a malfunction after 'make ready' and before 'standby' (thereby making everyone wait).

If you have a malfunction and then drop your loaded gun, or if you have a malfunction and have an AD, or if you have a malfunction and commit any other dq-able offense, then you are still dq'd. A malfunction is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, and there is no issue of 'priority'. A dq is always a dq, no matter what.

If the shooter feels they have a legit argument, they can arbitrate. The committee may stand behind 10.4.3 or they may say it was a malf under 5.7.1. I see validity in both sides and believe the RM or committee could come down on either side.

If you are a betting man, I will happily bet you $100 any time this situation every goes to arbitration, and I will win your $100 every time.

[remoandiris]

What if the malfunction caused you to break the 180, or drop the handgun. Would you still think there was a contradiction?

Sorry, that is a faulty analogy. What possible malfunction could cause a 180 break at the "Make Ready"?

[remoandiris]

A malfunction (per 5.7.1) would be where the gun was not capable of being fired or a sight fell off or the dot won't turn on.

Please provide a reference from the rulebook or NROI ruling that malfunction means the gun was not capable of being fired or a sight fell off or the dot won't turn on.

I looked. There isn't a definition for malfunction.

[Chuck Anderson]

What if the malfunction caused you to break the 180, or drop the handgun. Would you still think there was a contradiction?

Sorry, that is a faulty analogy. What possible malfunction could cause a 180 break at the "Make Ready"?

About half of the 180 violations I've seen have been during remedial actions.

That said I'm pretty sure there used to be a rule regarding firearm malfunctions causing an AD. That rule was removed to eliminate this exact scenario. There is no conflict. A DQ supersedes all. Period.

[remoandiris]

Do you see a contradiction in 10.4.3 and 5.7.1? One says DQ and the other says no penalty. There is no definition of "malfunction". A shot without a trigger pull seems to be a malfunction.

There is no contradiction. If you have a malfunction, you can repair it and continue to shoot the match. That is not the case if you're disqualified. Once disqualified, a competitor cannot continue to participate.

Even though the shot was the result of a malf it was still a shot none the less.

Agreed. Which rule has priority? One says DQ the other says no penalty. Is this a case of letting the RM decide?

If you agree, then there's nothing to decide. The instant a shot goes off while loading the handgun, the shooter is disqualified. Once disqualified, it's irrelevant whether the shot was due to a "malfunction" or anything else for that matter, as the shooter can no longer participate in the match.

This is not an issue of a rule having "priority," but rather, defining what "disqualification" means. If a shooter does anything that results in a disqualification, other facts or rules that might hypothetically apply in the absence of that DQ have no bearing on the outcome.

I agree it was a shot. But I also see a contradiction in the rulebook.

with all due respect, I believe the contradiction exists only in your mind. the rulebook seems very clear to me. 5.7.1 does NOT say that if the gun has a malfunction, the shooter has an excuse for a DQ action.

I was driving to Wal-Mart and had a thought; a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Meaning a shooter can have a gun malfunction that results in an AD, but that malfunction is still an AD, like you guys have said.

I think 5.7.1 could use an "exception", (akin to 10.4.2.1) stating something like "a malfunction that results in an action that would otherwise DQ the competitor (such as an AD when loading) does not apply under this rule" or something like that. Or a definition/few examples of what a malfunction is.

Whatever. I see where everyone is coming from. Malfunction or not, an AD is an AD.