Grounded hot guns (3-gun, multigun)

[Flexmoney]

This thread is for the sharing of ways that "hot guns" can be safely grounded during a multigun stage.

There have been a number of ideas spread through various other threads. It would be great if you guys could dig up those ideas and copy and paste them into this thread.

This thjread is NOT for debating the pro and cons of grounding hot guns. If you have an opinion on that, please state it in one of the other threads...where it is open to discussion. Thanks

[Patrick Sweeney]

Blue plastic barrels, 30 gallons or larger, in a frame that holds them down at a 45 degree angle. Point the barrel towards a side berm, and if needed, flag the approaches so no one can walk out in front of it.

Carpe-line the inside if it makes you feel good.

The shooter places their rifle or shotgun in the drum. Safety on, preferably, but with the clear understanding that if there is an AD either in placing the long gun in, or later retrieving it, it is a DQ. (You'll be less likely to have shooter launching their guns into the barrel as they sprint past.)

[davidwiz]

Use what is called a "hot box", thought I don't know if that is the proper term. Basically, it is a rectangular metal box that is opened on one end and closed on the other that is supported by a stand and stands on an angle. The closed end of the box is filled with shredded tires and/or other bullet resistant stuff. They come in different flavors to stop different types of projectiles: pistol or rifle ammo. The downside is that they are quite expensive, with the rifle ones costing at least $500.

These boxes are used in police dept and gov't buildings in two ways: 1) after the person unloads their gun, they would drop the hammer on it while pointing it into this box or 2) the person drops the mag and shots the live round into the box.

As I invision such a "hot box" being used in 3-Gun, instead of unloading the gun into the box, have the shooter place the loaded rifle or shotgun, muzzle down, into the box and be on their way.

I'll find the proper name and companies that make them and post here.

Patrick's idea above is probably the most cost effective. I found a company called Caswell Int'l that makes a portable bullet trap that looks like a big blanket.

-David

[George]

My idea from another thread:

I was kinda looking at shoot through the barrel type props which everyone usually has at a range, pointed into a side berm/wall with a hunk of rug in it and maybe a partial end plug to keep a long gun from sailing right on through.

At our club we have dropped “unloaded” long guns this way in the past and I am looking at trying it hot at an upcoming rifle/shotgun match our club is putting on later this month.

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Wakal’s post from another thread:

We started with a 10" cardboard tube 4' long, as found at your finer hardware stores. Lined with carpet padding and the bottem blocked (and stuffed with carpet padding). Top edge taped for a neat and semi-pro "look."

A 5' by 30" section of rubber conveyer belt, bolted to form a tube, and then filled with dirt...with the cardboard tube sticking out of it (and usually through a hole in a handy wall) at a 45-degree angle.

The rifle or shotgun's finish isn't hurt by the carpet padding (we all know how concerned the average IPSC shotoer is with their gun's pristine condition ), and is grounded muzzle-down in a heap of sand.

Weapons rack meets clearing barrel.

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More thoughts,

First we need to change the rule about not “abandoning” a hot gun

I don’t like tables for dropping long guns and pistols even if they are supposedly clear because of the lack of muzzle direction control.

I do not believe the “boxes” need to be capable of containing a round, I see them more as a way of controlling muzzle direction after they are dropped.

There has to be a protocol for never passing in front of it, or not until they are cleared.

The direction it is pointed has to be able to take a round safely in case of an AD (this is a lot easier than making the box bulletproof)

if one barrel is used to drop the first and retrieve the second gun there is now a risk of the still hot gun being pulled out so separate drop and pickup points should always be utilized.

Additionally, if multiple guns are grabbed from a table, it needs to be wide enough so there is no chance of knocking another weapon into an unsafe direction as you grab one.

The scenario I would prefer to see is a separate card table holding each new gun and a separate grounding barrel right next to each new gun pickup point.

Each pickup point should always be a carpeted surface to prevent rotation under duress.

Pistol hot drops can be done into the same type of muzzle control barrel with the addition of a set of guide sticks just wide enough to prevent rotation if dropped between them.

Regards,

[Matthew_Mink]

I've shot a couple of 3gun matches where the rules were IDPAish. Note that IDPA doesn't have 3gun matches yet, but I hear they are working on the rules. In all the IDPAish 3gun matches I've shot or heard about, they all had stages where mulitple guns were used, and they all had to have hot guns grounded. Course design made it work.

One stage was starting in a box with only your loaded pistol in holster. Loaded shotgun in trunk of car. At signal draw and engage some targets, proceed to car. Toss hot gun in back seat, proceed to trunk and grab shotgun. The pistol must stay on the back seat and stay pointed downrange, safety engaged. At no time did the shotgun portion of the stage require anybody to be uprange of the loaded pistol. When finished, unload and show clear on shotgun, hand it to somebody else, muzzle vertical, unload and show clear for pistol and holster, get shotgun back. We were all adults and acted like it at the match. No match DQ's, no close calls, no safety worrys, no nothing. It worked well and it was fun.

I think USPSA could adopt some similar rules with smart course design so we could run multiple guns without having to unload on the clock. We are all big boys and girls, aren't we?

[mactiger]

Exactly, Matt.

George and Wakal have some valid points. The main thing is that the muzzle be controlled (barrels, boxes, tubes), and that whatever is in front of the muzzle can contain a shot if one is fired. Safety rules cover what happens then.

Tables without some sort of muzzle control probably are not feasible--too many chances to spin the gun around.

The best solution I've seen is a plastic barrel with some sort of padding in the bottom, angled into the ground or berm. Easy, cheap, and no problems if the gun does go off. Plus, it's almost impossible to get in front of the muzzle.

Troy

[benny hill]

Also , I like to reholster my gun hot w/ safty on. It is just like when the buzzer went off & I'm in control of it.

[ErikW]

My stage at 3GN had three tables (actually flipped cable spools) carpeted with two strips of target lathe screwed in parallel for the competitor to pre-place and/or ground his guns. In several instances, competitors did not place the muzzle near-parallel with the sticks. In several instances, competitors did not place the handgun within the sticks. In one instance, a competitor placed his handgun on a smaller surface on the other side of the range that was used to hold a prop. In ast least one instance, a competitor tossed his shotgun on the table and it almost fell off.

Tables are unacceptable.

[Flexmoney]

I kinda cringe a bit when I picture toss a gun down a tube...muzzle first.

I worry about damage or obstruction of the bore/crown.

Are you guys saying that isn't a problem? (I don't give a squat about dingin up the finish...though a rug is nice.)

[George]

I kinda cringe a bit when I picture toss a gun down a tube...muzzle first.

I worry about damage or obstruction of the bore/crown.

That’s why I favor a barrel in an approximately horizontal position so you can kinda chuck it in so it mostly lands on it’s side. Rug helps keep it from bouncing, or sliding and some sort of obstruction at the far end is in order to keep a real vigorous toss from going right on through and out the other end.

I would never chuck my rifle, or shotgun down a tube of sand and I do not believe anyone would actually risk plugging a bore with swarf by building something where the muzzle actually buried it’s head in the sand.

--

Regards,

[Larry White]

Flex, the tuber were cardboard about 10 or 12 inches in dia. stuck down in a hole in the ground with a good bit of carpet padding in them. Worked like a charm. Larry

[TeamGE]

Lets look at how we handle preloading tables/areas. It is usually a table, set as close to the berm as possible, with an RO stationed there to watch you load your guns with the muzzle pointed at the berm (on the 180). Meanwhile the rest of the stage is full of people resetting and scoreing. This works out great and I don't think anyone has any problems with this.

Now, lets build a "Hot gun/dump station". A 30 to 55 gallon drum, sideways (horizonal to the ground), attached to a frame work that holds the drum 2 to 3 feet off the ground (carpet inside and at the end). Both ends of the drum need to to be open, so if an AD happens, the muzzle blast and everthing else in the drum will not be thrown back at the shooter or RO. Attaching the carpet to the drum will keep it from sliding. Do what ever needs to be done so the gun will not side through, (carpet over the end of the drum is a good idea, anything that will blow out of the way, incase of an AD). Place the drum as close to the berm as possible, at an angle so the gun that gets grounded in it will not break the 180 or down range. A small table can be placed right next to this "dump station", or even be built into the frame work that holds the drum, (on top of the drum comes to mind, if the drum is not to high off the ground).

Now, when the shooter is finish, he/her and the RO can retrieve the gun from the drum and use the table to help clear the gun, with it pointed at the berm. If it is done correctly and safely, the rest of the stage could be scored and reset at the same time. I'm sure that every stage design will have its own requirements for safety, but again this is a stage design issue.

At this point, we are talking only about longs guns. Pistols are going to take some more thought.

The one problem I have with a tube that is pluged at the end and placed in the ground or berm is the potential of the blast coming back out of the tube at the shooter, if an AD happens.

[kimel]

Okay...I'll ask the same question I posed in another thread:

I put my shotgun down the tube. Muzzle it resting on whatever at the bottom. Gun goes boom. Will the shotgun launch itself out of the tube? I honestly don't know the answer here.

If shotgun launches is there a danger that it will cycle another round and when it lands again potentially go boom again? Again, I don't know for sure. I am inclined to think that this would be the ultimate in limp wristing/shouldering and the action would not successfully cycle.

Ideally, the padding at the bottom would provide such little resistance that there wouldn't be much energy to send the shotgun back out. Maybe styrofoam sheets would fill the bill here. Again, don't know.

Edited July 2, 2004 by kimel

[Sterling White]

Guns go boom when the safety is off and the trigger is pulled! If the gun goes boom when putting it into a cradle, tube, or hotbox without a finger on the trigger.....you better find a new gun.

I agree with Benny - I'd like to reholster my pistol.

And I think that another competitor could stand near the hotbox or tube to make sure the gun in it stays put until the RO and Shooter return...like a watchdog.

[mactiger]

Any way you do it, the gist is two-fold: keep the gun from getting bumped or moved so that it's not pointing in a safe direction anymore, and have something to contain the shot (pellets, slug, bullet), if it does go off. Loading tables can be just that, because the competitor is not under the clock to load his gun, and is being supervised pretty closely. Any place where the competitor is being timed and has to safely ground a hot gun needs to be built with the two conditions I listed above in mind. There's probably a hundred ways to do this, but as long as those two conditions are met, I would never have a problem with grounding a hot gun. As Beven states, pistols might be a bit trickier, but it's not impossible.

Troy

[mactiger]

Guns go boom when the safety is off and the trigger is pulled! If the gun goes boom when putting it into a cradle, tube, or hotbox without a finger on the trigger.....you better find a new gun.

I agree with Benny - I'd like to reholster my pistol.

And I think that another competitor could stand near the hotbox or tube to make sure the gun in it stays put until the RO and Shooter return...like a watchdog.

I agree--just putting one down should not make it go off.

As for holstering your pistol hot, you are certainly allowed to do that. However, under the current rules you can't be required to do it. That's the problem.

Troy

[JFlowers]

Another option is just a set of 2x4s mounted on-edge down a table with carpet padding in between. Erik stated that his stage at the 3GN had a table with lathing strips screwed to it and some competitors where not real careful about making sure their long gun was grounded between/parallel with the strips. a pair of 2x4s gives you a 4 inch deep trough to put the long gun in and the walls provide additional muzzle control. 2x6s or even 2x8s could be used if 2x4s where found to be too shallow to control rifles with large box magazines.

The ideas using large cardboard tubes is great for shotguns, but could be troublesome for rifles, though cutting a large slot in the aft half of the bottom of the tube would allow space for the pistol grip and magazine and force the muzzle even further into control.

My only concern with a 55 gallon blue barrel on its side would be the amount of slop it allows, but that could be addressed fairly easily. Two barrels end to end with the far end covered in our favorite orange mesh would make a nice safe home for a long gun.

As to the "abandoning" of a hot gun rule, the change would be easy. Add "except as dictated by the stage description." to the rule. Then a hot gun can be staged away from the competitor and the stage description could specify how a competitor abandons their long gun (in the barrel, down the tube, on the table between the 2x6s, etc) or pistol, and the situations the rule is really intended to address (imho) are still covered.

James

[JFD]

At the couple of matches I've held we used our horizontal barrel props (have 3 of them at various heights) with a carpet lining. Both ends were open, but I could see where some type of screen would be good for the exit end. Ours are constructed using a blue barrel (55 gal) with a 2X4 suport frame.

I don't know about reholstering a hot handgun. It's been said that competitors can't handle placing a hot rifle or shotgun on a table, but those same people are supposed to holster a hot handgun without touching off a round? My opinion is that folks who can't place hot guns on tables shouldn't be holstering hot handguns while on the clock. I'd rather reholster, but I'm also capable of putting hot guns on a table safely.

[rhino]

I just had a wacky idea ...

Inside of the half barrel or whatever ... instead of a carpeted surface onto which the shooter drops the gun ... how about a net or some webbing or something attached to the inside that will both "give" and catch the long gun and hold it pointed into the ground or the sand or whatever?

[Flexmoney]

Let me restate..real quick...this thread is for sharing ideas on props. Lets keep the debates out of this one!!! We can talk about holsters and pistols and such in another thread.

[forum nazi mode off]

I am still worried about the tubes that angle down. Does the carpet stop the muzzle from contacting the end of the tube?

If not, that seems like a big no-no to me. I don't mind beating the crap out of things. But, I want my barrel to remain straight (not taking the weight of "catching the gun"), I want my muzzle (crown) proctected, and I want my bore clear of obstructions.

[Flexmoney]

Joey,

Neat idea. Many of the shooter have doo-dads that would likely catch on netting and such. How about something solid, yet flexible? Maybe suspend the carpet so that it acts like a hammock?

[Wakal]

We used wadded carpet padding in the bottom of the tubes. Soft, squishy, doesn't get caught on front sights or barrel crowns...

Alex

[Larry White]

Flex, the carpet pad in the bottom of the tube(the bottom of the tube should be closed) protects the gun and keeps the muzzle out of the dirt. The gun is pointed down at a angle and if it should discharge the pit in which the tube sits will contain the round. A shotgun or rifle contained in such a tube will not recoil out of the tube if it discharges. On all but the longest open shotguns the trigger was actually inside the tube, all that stuck out was the buttstock. These tubes can be placed anywhere in the bay and dont have to be next to the berm. Larry

[TeamGE]

Flexmoney,

I have a problem with this also, not just with dinging up the muzzle, but with the idea that you are resting the gun on the muzzle and in a sence, plugging the end of the barrel. Not a good idea, when an AD happens. Does't matter if the end of the tube was soft or hard.

If the gun were kept from sliding all the way to the bottom of the tube, (with out blocking the muzzle, and the muzzle end of the tube was vented to atmosphere, then it will work.

[davidwiz]

It shouldn't be too much of a problem to find (or make) shredded tires, like they use in playgrounds. Put that at the end of the barrel, put a carpet or other type of cover over the fill. That way, if you drop the gun muzzle first into the barrel, it's not going to hit something hard, and if the gun does AD, there is material there to stop or slow down the round enought so there is no richochet (sp?) and the cover will prevent the fill from getting into the gun.

-David