polizei1 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Ok, so I think I'm finally getting my brother into shooting, and after shooting my EMP vs. the XD I have, I think he sees the differences and value of a 1911, besides I also shoot single stack. So, of course he sees the SA Range Officer and likes it, but he wants to shoot 9mm because I already reload. At this point he doesn't know anything about 1911's and very little about guns. I recommended the Spartan and low and behold, I was super surprised to see one at a local gun show today! I'm thinking entry level, the cheaper the better, but it needs to be competition ready (no GI). I figured the Spartan would be the best choice at ~$600. Add a magwell, FO front, some grip tape and new grips. I know I can get these at Shooters Connection, but I can get dealer price on guns, so keep that in mind. I'm looking for a 9mm 1911 to shoot SS Minor with. Is there a better option I'm missing? Edited March 11, 2012 by polizei1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 IIRC, come with FO sight doesn't it? I'd go with Spartan too...in fact, I did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee blackman Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 These are the things I would look at. What division do you want to shoot? A single stack 1911 put you in either Single Stack or Limited 10. #1) Reliability and accuracy.... #2) A good trigger (or the ability to do a trigger job easy, without a professional gunsmith, and on a budget) #3) The ability to put a decent set of sights on the gun (without having to send the gun off to have the slide milled and cut, which is expensive). #4) A low barrel axis, because you'll reach a point where you'll find this important (which is why you probably see more 1911 type STI, CZ, and Glock guns as opposed to Sig, Beretta, and XD) So I would back your choice with the Spartan. I went with the Glock 34 and then a Glock 24. If I had the money I would go STI or SVI... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Since he doesn't currently own a gun now, it's a wide open field, otherwise the standard advice is to shoot what you own now, and look at changing gear after a few months in the sport. In general, shooting minor is a disadvantage if you have an opportunity to shoot major. (Although lately, I've been hearing some M and GM class shooters starting to re-think that rule of thumb specially if they are women and have to deal with recoil and splits while shooting Single Stack.) Shooting 9mm in Single Stack will be forcing him to shoot minor. For a first gun, I usually recommend shooters buy the gun that they fall in love with. It gets them to the range to practice with it. It makes them familiar with the manual of arms. Forget about competition, and just enjoy being able to shoot and learn to maximize the potential of the gun. Of course, very few people have the luxury to just throw money at a gun, so we'd like to get more than just plinking use. Although your brother knows very little about guns right now, try to probe deeper about what he likes about the the EMP over the XD. Is it the trigger? Is it the feel of a metal vs. polymer. Is it the thinner grips of a single stack vs. the wider grip of a double stack? Is it the look one gun vs. the other? Is he an accuracy hound? I'm a fan of the CZ style guns, so I would recommend a CZ-75 SP01 or a EAA Stock II if he wants a heavier front end on a gun. For a lighter front end, the classic CZ-75B or the newer Shadow. If he is into the polymer but just doesn't like the stock trigger feel, have him try out at XDM 5.25 that has had the upgraded trigger in it. For a Single Stack, I'd put up more money and go for a SA Loaded. Edited March 11, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I'll amend to say that if he's not stuck on a 1911, consider a Glock 34; it is more flexible as he'd have a gun he could shoot in Production, L10, and Limited for less than the cost of a Spartan. Later on, he could get a Lone Wolf G24 top end, and he'd have a pretty competitive 6" .40 for Limited too. Also, 1911 internal parts = expensive, Glock internal parts = crazy cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 First gun? In 9mm? My initial advice would be a Glock, CZ or M&P. Maybe Sig, Hk, or Berretta if you have that kind of fetish. I know most people on this forum don't have problems with their 1911 in 9mm, but it's definitely not the 'standard.' I'm more about giving a new shooter an a platform to build their shooting skills with instead of platform that's half gun half project. Otherwise they can sour on the project part, then learning good fundamental skills goes by the wayside, or they loose interest all together. If a competition only gun, then I believe the above can be disregarded. But in my mind a first gun should never be a competition only gun... But that's me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Bassman Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) I agree with most of the above comments. IMHO, the 9mm 1911 shines in two potential competitions. Unfortunately, neither of them are USPSA. I think the 9mm 1911 is a great IDPA ESP pistol (mag capacity, trigger pull), and it's also a pretty good choice for Steel Challenge (cheaper ammo, trigger pull). But in USPSA, you're either shooting Single Stack minor or Limited 10 minor, either of which will put a new shooter at a real disadvantage. I try to buy guns in the calibers they were created in where possible. That means .45ACP for 1911's, 9mm for most service sidearms (Glock, Beretta, Sig, CZ). Guns like the Glock 17, Sig 226, Beretta 92, and my favorite CZ75 are "multipurpose" - they're highly competitive in USPSA Production, IDPA SSP, IDPA ESP, and 3 Gun. They can also compete (at a minor scoring disadvantage) in Limited, Limited 10. I agree with starting a new shooter in 9mm, but even before that, I'd try to get the new shooter to buy something like a Ruger 22/45. A good .22 pistol is something that will pay dividends for many years for a new shooter, and allow them to get the fundamentals down without thinking about the $4 it just cost them every time they empty a magazine. If he wants to skip the .22, I'd look hard at a service-type 9mm pistol. See if you can find a range to shoot the Glocks, Springer XDm's, S&W M&P's, Sigs, Berettas, and CZ's. Pick the one he likes and see if he can wear it out. Edited March 11, 2012 by 59Bassman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the replies. Currently I'm shooting SS minor with my SA EMP. We both just want to have fun, I'm not worried about splits, draw times, etc. While I'm personally more focused on that, my goal is to get him into shooting to enjoy the sport. I told him my gripes about polymer guns, and he would like to shoot the same division as me, I'm also a HUGE 1911 addict, so naturally I steered him to them. I already have the XD9 he was going to use, but now after shooting it he really doesn't like the trigger, and I believe he might like the feel of a 1911 more, being that it's single stack, and has a better trigger. I'm quite a bit biased because my gun is a Harrison custom. So specifically, I'm looking for a 9mm 1911 to shoot SS minor. I copied this from a 1911-specific forum and I apologize for not edited the original post to reflect that. @PistoleroJesse, why do you think a first gun should never be a competition gun? I use my custom Harrison SA EMP for carry and competition. I believe you should shoot what you have, and what you want. Besides, I get practice with my carry gun, a LOT of people don't. I certainly would like a dedicated competition gun though. Edited March 11, 2012 by polizei1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Just my 2 cents ..... A 9mm Spartan would be a great choice for a first gun it allready has f/o front sight and addjustable rear, and things you need to concentrate on is like stance and grip all the basics doesen't matter if your shooting major or minor! Shoot have a fun and save money with 9mm whats not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Exactly, plus I already reload 9mm, so I can reload all the ammo and everything will be uniform. I was thinking if he goes with the Spartan, put some grip tape on the front strap, get more aggressive grips, add a DP ICE magwell, and get DP tuned Chip McCormick 10-round mags. Eventually I would like to run a Trojan myself, but I don't have the funds right now, and he doesn't want to spend that much money so that's unfortunately out of the question. My main concern is reliability and a good shooter. I've read good reports from here about the Spartan so I'm curious if there's something else I should be looking into. Seems like a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob DuBois Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Spartan is a good buy for the money hard to beat, I also have a Glock 34. Have friends who enjoy their M@P's and two friends who purchased the new XDM 5.25 and are having a ball with it out of the box. Try to look and handle all to see which has the best feel. Nine a good caliber to start someone with for ammo cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 The STI Spartan is a great gun. For all the parameters you have laid out, I think it would be a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray S Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Exactly, plus I already reload 9mm, so I can reload all the ammo and everything will be uniform. I was thinking if he goes with the Spartan, put some grip tape on the front strap, get more aggressive grips, add a DP ICE magwell, and get DP tuned Chip McCormick 10-round mags. Eventually I would like to run a Trojan myself, but I don't have the funds right now, and he doesn't want to spend that much money so that's unfortunately out of the question. My main concern is reliability and a good shooter. I've read good reports from here about the Spartan so I'm curious if there's something else I should be looking into. Seems like a winner. Dawson also offers one that has the magwell plus some other things changed out on it. http://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80001331-1326311647 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Yea I saw that. I'm able to get dealer prices, so I'm probably going to have him buy it stock and I'll probably add the ICE magwell myself. The other things he can add later if he feels the need, but with the cost of the gun, mags, gear, etc. it's going to be a bit overwhelming. Ha, no one said USPSA was a cheap hobby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I was thinking if he goes with the Spartan, put some grip tape on the front strap, get more aggressive grips, add a DP ICE magwell, and get DP tuned Chip McCormick 10-round mags. I have the g 10 grips that came on my STI USPSA SS and they are great! I saw a pair at Shooters Conection I think they were $50 or $60, Also im runing the Metalform 10 rd mags Brownells part #620-000-013 they run great in my gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 @PistoleroJesse, why do you think a first gun should never be a competition gun? I use my custom Harrison SA EMP for carry and competition. I believe you should shoot what you have, and what you want. Besides, I get practice with my carry gun, a LOT of people don't. I certainly would like a dedicated competition gun though. My first car wasn't an F1 car. It was an '88 Ford Taurus. Thank god because I would have killed myself and my friends if my first car had any excitement to it at all. But now that I'm older and wiser I can handle my Subaru just fine and better than most. All joking aside I think you should buy a gun suitable for both SD and Competition for your first gun in recognition of the most important reason to have a gun. Once you have that SD slot filled, buy a dedicated competition gun if the competition bug really bites you. But I've seen too many people buy one gun for HD and morph it into a competition gun and reduce the reliability in search of what I don't know. I don't think what you have exactly qualifies as a competition gun because it fits the SD role to a tee and was likely tuned for that purpose. I compete and carry a G17 and the only thing that I replaced on it were the sights and the firing pin block spring. Pretty much there are two axioms at work against each other here. If it goes bang every time, there is no problem with a specific gun. It's the Indian, not the arrow. I do like the STI Spartan and it's price point though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuNerd Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The Dawson Spartan is hard to beat. Will be my next non-Glock purchase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) I went with the spartan myself. Added griptape on the front, dawson MSH and VZ slim grips. I also had a local smith do a trigger job on the gun. It runs great and I really don't have a ton of money in the gun. On the major minor thing it has alaredy been worn out on debate. If hes new to shooting and is on a budget the 9mm is alot cheaper to shoot and less recoil to deal with and 2 extra rounds in the mag Edited March 12, 2012 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 If you get dealer price then get a Trojan in 40 for you both and lOad minor 40 to start with then move up. Minor 40 in a 1911 is almost cheating and great for new shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbird1976 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I use the Spartan in .45ACP for Single Stack. It's a great little gun for the money. It's plenty accurate with good ammo and reliable. I polished up the trigger group a little, added grip tape to the front strap, and an S&A Magwell. The only thing I regret is that purchased the gun as gift for my dad and will have to return it to him at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thanks guys, keep in coming. How is the Spartan with the throated barrel? I've only had experience with my EMP, and it has a ramped. Anyone having reliability issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooter57 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Just get what he likes, 9 or 45. find out what he's willing to spend, gun and equipment =$$$. starting out minor or major really should not play in the cost. after a couple of months he may decide not to compete or want /afford to practice and lose money selling his stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Mine runs like a top. Generally your safer running round nose bullets in the gun than a flat point. I Have mainly Tripp mags in mine which are the 10 roundes. For a 9 round, the metalform "springfield" mag which has the grove down the front works flawless as well. I would say the spartan is the best bang for the buck going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thanks everyone, hopefully he's going to get one in the next couple of days. Appreciate all the comments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss1622 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Springfiel Loaded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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