Flat Primers?

[Ofishl1]

I was cleaning some freshly shot 38 sc from my first loaded batch through a newly acquired Bedell Custom shorty, I see the lower batch appears normal, but the upper cases seem to be.. well, flat?

I am new to shooting and looading 38SC, so I assume upper cases are over pressure? I am finding about 3 or 4 out of a batch of 30-40 cases. Is this just due to inconsistent powder drops, or do you guys see this as a normal,....random...condition?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ofishl1

[Ofishl1]

I was cleaning some freshly shot 38 sc from my first loaded batch through a newly acquired Bedell Custom shorty, I see the lower batch appears normal, but the upper cases seem to be.. well, flat?

I am new to shooting and looading 38SC, so I assume upper cases are over pressure? I am finding about 3 or 4 out of a batch of 30-40 cases. Is this just due to inconsistent powder drops, or do you guys see this as a normal,....random...condition?

cant seem to get the pic of the cases to attach....BELOW

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ofishl1

[Ofishl1]

[Sarge]

Are you sure those are all from your gun? The flattest primers have strikes square in the middle while the better looking primers are all off center hits.

Also there seem to be different brands mixed in. Are the silver ones federals? Are these rifle or pistol primers?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Sarge

[Ofishl1]

Are you sure those are all from your gun? The flattest primers have strikes square in the middle while the better looking primers are all off center hits.

Also there seem to be different brands mixed in. Are the silver ones federals?(CCI) Are these rifle or pistol primers? (mine are SP)

Well, thats a good point Sarge, I just shot a match Sunday, and there were obviously other open shooters in our squads...I thought I was getting my brass, but certainly possible others got mixed in...

I bought all new starline 38sc to start loading with, but anyone could have shot the same case, I was also given a 100 or so pre-loaded from the guns former owner, who ran them with 9.0g of IMR 4756 which I shot them in with my own mix but I dont think his load is overly hot to cause this,....I am reloading them now for some chrono and practice work and will check the primers again and look for this, since I will be the only one shooting there will be no chance of mixing up range brass.

[Sarge]

I only noticed because my gun makes a very pronounced off center hit on primers. I can generally pick mine out of a lineup.

I shoot 9MAJOR and was getting pretty flat primers using small pistol. I followed the advice of thousands and switched to small rifle. The SP's were pretty flat while the SR look fine.

[sauza45]

What is your load? I am loading 10.3gr N105, 125 Haps, 1.235 OAL, WIN SRP for 173 PF on starline 38sc brass and mine look good.

Edited March 6, 2012 by sauza45

[Youngeyes]

Are you sure those are all from your gun? The flattest primers have strikes square in the middle while the better looking primers are all off center hits.

Also there seem to be different brands mixed in. Are the silver ones federals? Are these rifle or pistol primers?

Good catch Sarge. Two different strikes and two(at least) different primers. The shooter with the off center strikes wins.

[blaster113]

when I tried Autocomp in .38SC my primers used to look like that when I tried to push it above 170pf...

[RiggerJJ]

I only noticed because my gun makes a very pronounced off center hit on primers. I can generally pick mine out of a lineup.

I shoot 9MAJOR and was getting pretty flat primers using small pistol. I followed the advice of thousands and switched to small rifle. The SP's were pretty flat while the SR look fine.

There is a reason for that...

Pistol primers are designed for pressures up to only around half of what rifle primers are designed for. Using rifle primers is just covering up over-pressure signs that you could see when using pistol primers but probably WILL NOT see if using small rifle primers.

When developing a load for MAJOR9, I use soft (Fed) pistol primers so I may see an overpressure from overload coming on. After the load is developed, I use slightly harder pistol primers (Win or CCI) just to lower the chances of a primer det in the loader.

lets be careful out there...

jj

Edited March 6, 2012 by RiggerJJ

[Sarge]

I only noticed because my gun makes a very pronounced off center hit on primers. I can generally pick mine out of a lineup.

I shoot 9MAJOR and was getting pretty flat primers using small pistol. I followed the advice of thousands and switched to small rifle. The SP's were pretty flat while the SR look fine.

There is a reason for that...

Pistol primers are designed for pressures up to only around half of what rifle primers are designed for. Using rifle primers is just covering up over-pressure signs that you could see when using pistol primers but probably WILL NOT see if using small rifle primers.

When developing a load for MAJOR9, I use soft (Fed) pistol primers so I may see an overpressure from overload coming on. After the load is developed, I use slightly harder pistol primers (Win or CCI) just to lower the chances of a primer det in the loader.

lets be careful out there...

jj

There it is, the argument I read earlier in other threads. I figured it would be along eventually.

Even the 38Supers running out there are running hotter than originally designed.

SPP's rarely cut it in these high pressure loads. Using ultra soft primers to determine pressure limits is not the answer. I have seen flat Fed primers in production loads at 140 PF! It all hinges on what powder is being used plus other parameters.

Yes let's do be careful but not overly paranoid.

[RiggerJJ]

Never had a problem with spp's, even thou I know I am loading over specs. Rarely cut it? Hardly...major9 can be done safely, even at overpressure, as long as one is careful...

Using srp's to cover pressure signs seen with spp's is not being careful, imho.

if being careful is being over parinoid, so be it. Guess I am paranoid.

[Ofishl1]

What is your load? I am loading 10.3gr N105, 125 Haps, 1.235 OAL, WIN SRP for 173 PF on starline 38sc brass and mine look good.

Well, I just got back from the range and ran 125g XTP's on top of--- 6.8 VV340---SPP---1.240 OAL, here is a pic of the primers, and the off center hits from the previous post /pic ARE from my Bedell shorty, because these were mixed with no others and the primers are hit in the same place, however I do not really see any overpressure signs, although 6.8 of VV340 is prob only running 150-155, too windy to chrono today, so went indoors,...I did buy some WIN SRPrimers I have yet to try on the VV340, but they all fired off fine with the WIN and CCI spp., now I did notice a huge difference in the 9.0g of IMR 4675 Jan R sent me with the gun, you can really feel the force back into your hand in the crease between thumb and index, sort of like a sharp hit, may have less upward movement of the comp tho...regardless the primer issue is prob like Sarge said, some other gun contributing to the flat primer issue..

[warpspeed]

Those look just fine to me. I do not even mind if they are flat all the way to the edge but primer flow would be a different story.

[al503]

however I do not really see any overpressure signs, although 6.8 of VV340 is prob only running 150-155, too windy to chrono today, so went indoors,...I did buy some WIN SRPrimers I have yet to try on the VV340, but they all fired off fine with the WIN and CCI spp.

You'll find that what one considers 'overpressure' is often very different than what another shooter might think. If my primers look like that, I would switch to a slower, 'safer' powder. I've seen several people using N340 (even in 9 major) and it is just too fast, IMHO.

[Ofishl1]

however I do not really see any overpressure signs, although 6.8 of VV340 is prob only running 150-155, too windy to chrono today, so went indoors,...I did buy some WIN SRPrimers I have yet to try on the VV340, but they all fired off fine with the WIN and CCI spp.

You'll find that what one considers 'overpressure' is often very different than what another shooter might think. If my primers look like that, I would switch to a slower, 'safer' powder. I've seen several people using N340 (even in 9 major) and it is just too fast, IMHO.

I really like the way VV meters, N320 is all I run in my .40 Edge in limited, ....so I gather N350 may be a "safer" powder? ( I also bought 2 lbs of 3N37)

[al503]

I really like the way VV meters, N320 is all I run in my .40 Edge in limited, ....so I gather N350 may be a "safer" powder? ( I also bought 2 lbs of 3N37)

VV powders are great. 350 is a safer powder than 340 for major in an open pistol. You might also try 3n38 and n105 to see what your pistol likes the best. The latter two make the most gas and will work the comp very effectively.

[HI5-O]

however I do not really see any overpressure signs, although 6.8 of VV340 is prob only running 150-155, too windy to chrono today, so went indoors,...I did buy some WIN SRPrimers I have yet to try on the VV340, but they all fired off fine with the WIN and CCI spp.

You'll find that what one considers 'overpressure' is often very different than what another shooter might think. If my primers look like that, I would switch to a slower, 'safer' powder. I've seen several people using N340 (even in 9 major) and it is just too fast, IMHO.

Looks like you'll have flatter primers should you use this powder to make major. 3N38 and N105 has worked well for me but the cost of VV powders were just too much for me. Using IMR 7625 and small rifle primers.

I like the way you set up the brass

[XRe]

VV powders are great. 350 is a safer powder than 340 for major in an open pistol. You might also try 3n38 and n105 to see what your pistol likes the best. The latter two make the most gas and will work the comp very effectively.

In Super (or Super Lapua, which is effectively Supercomp), N105 and 3N38 are the only two powders VV lists that make major PF in the book. They also create the most gas and ejecta of the VV powders (read: work the comp better). Al's spot on above

That said, even with an N105 load and SPPs, you'll still see some flattening of the primer with these powders. The edges should still be round, though - that's based on personal testing of my 125gr load w/ N105 and Win SPs.

The reason for SR primers initially started "back in the day" of old PF, where the race gun loads were notably over SAAMI spec, and we needed a harder primer cup to prevent flow, pierced primers, and primer shaving in the FP tunnel (there were long FPs on the market, but not like we have today). Many popular loads today are in the 45K psi neighborhood - back then, they were in the 55K neighborhood (some higher! ). So, while RiggerJJs' concerns are valid, the stuff you're playing with is well within the boundaries of what's been proven in this game. Whether or not your lighter, shorter pistol will hold up to the higher pressure loads long term might be another story (back in the day, we ran longer, heavier guns to help deal with the added recoil energy - that also gave them some buffer against the effects of higher pressure on the wear of the gun - modern high performance guns aren't built to take quite as much high pressure abuse).

I run SR primers in my loads - I don't need to, but they give me an extra margin of error both in terms of initial starting flame (they do give me more velocity than the SPs - would seem to indicate better/more complete burning of my powder charge) and avoiding shaving, etc. They look basically pristine after firing, so...

If you use SR primers and start to seem them flatten out, then you might take pause

[Ofishl1]

VV powders are great. 350 is a safer powder than 340 for major in an open pistol. You might also try 3n38 and n105 to see what your pistol likes the best. The latter two make the most gas and will work the comp very effectively.

In Super (or Super Lapua, which is effectively Supercomp), N105 and 3N38 are the only two powders VV lists that make major PF in the book. They also create the most gas and ejecta of the VV powders (read: work the comp better). Al's spot on above

That said, even with an N105 load and SPPs, you'll still see some flattening of the primer with these powders. The edges should still be round, though - that's based on personal testing of my 125gr load w/ N105 and Win SPs.

The reason for SR primers initially started "back in the day" of old PF, where the race gun loads were notably over SAAMI spec, and we needed a harder primer cup to prevent flow, pierced primers, and primer shaving in the FP tunnel (there were long FPs on the market, but not like we have today). Many popular loads today are in the 45K psi neighborhood - back then, they were in the 55K neighborhood (some higher! ). So, while RiggerJJs' concerns are valid, the stuff you're playing with is well within the boundaries of what's been proven in this game. Whether or not your lighter, shorter pistol will hold up to the higher pressure loads long term might be another story (back in the day, we ran longer, heavier guns to help deal with the added recoil energy - that also gave them some buffer against the effects of higher pressure on the wear of the gun - modern high performance guns aren't built to take quite as much high pressure abuse).

I run SR primers in my loads - I don't need to, but they give me an extra margin of error both in terms of initial starting flame (they do give me more velocity than the SPs - would seem to indicate better/more complete burning of my powder charge) and avoiding shaving, etc. They look basically pristine after firing, so...

If you use SR primers and start to seem them flatten out, then you might take pause

Thats good advice, I was visiting Angus today and after some talk, I bought some 3N37 and chrono'd tonight with 8g under a MG 125jhp and my averages were 1310-1325 which is just under major, the primers looked ok, and the gun seemed to run well and maybe too much muzzle flip, I used Federal "Match" primers this time, ( i dont know what "Match" means) but may be able to run up to 8.3 or 8.5 and get it to run a little flatter on recoil,...dont know...still trying to find a powder that seems to run well and stick with it, load and just shoot matches and practice,... indexing and finding the dot are more critical than goofing around with a lot of diff powders being new to Open....I shot my first match with it this Sunday as a second gun after running my STI Edge .40 and came in 8th in Limited which I was happy with, but running the Bedell in Open as a second gun dropped me WAY down....lost the damn dot several times on long stages and just pointed the center of the screen at the target and hoped for the best,....frustrating, I would have swore on my life the dot went out,...

[Ofishl1]

I only noticed because my gun makes a very pronounced off center hit on primers. I can generally pick mine out of a lineup.

I shoot 9MAJOR and was getting pretty flat primers using small pistol. I followed the advice of thousands and switched to small rifle. The SP's were pretty flat while the SR look fine.

There is a reason for that...

Pistol primers are designed for pressures up to only around half of what rifle primers are designed for. Using rifle primers is just covering up over-pressure signs that you could see when using pistol primers but probably WILL NOT see if using small rifle primers.

When developing a load for MAJOR9, I use soft (Fed) pistol primers so I may see an overpressure from overload coming on. After the load is developed, I use slightly harder pistol primers (Win or CCI) just to lower the chances of a primer det in the loader.

lets be careful out there...

jj

Why would there be a chance of a primer detonation either way?

[Sarge]

Federals are notably softer than other primers. They tend to go off if when other primers won't when jammed in a press. But it's not a common occurance by any means. Due diligence goes a long way in preventing it.

[al503]

Thats good advice, I was visiting Angus today and after some talk, I bought some 3N37 and chrono'd tonight with 8g under a MG 125jhp and my averages were 1310-1325 which is just under major, the primers looked ok, and the gun seemed to run well and maybe too much muzzle flip,

Once you get it up to PF, the flip will be reduced. With more powder, you'll have more gas to work the comp. You'll probably find a 'sweetspot' between 169-175 PF.

[Ofishl1]

Federals are notably softer than other primers. They tend to go off if when other primers won't when jammed in a press. But it's not a common occurance by any means. Due diligence goes a long way in preventing it.

Odd you mention that, the primer bar chattered while i was just loading the federal match primers in 38sc and it flipped sideways, I felt it before I knew it, had to force the shell out of the shell plate and the primer was in the pocket, but pretty mashed up...lucky I guess.

[Ofishl1]

Thats good advice, I was visiting Angus today and after some talk, I bought some 3N37 and chrono'd tonight with 8g under a MG 125jhp and my averages were 1310-1325 which is just under major, the primers looked ok, and the gun seemed to run well and maybe too much muzzle flip,

Once you get it up to PF, the flip will be reduced. With more powder, you'll have more gas to work the comp. You'll probably find a 'sweetspot' between 169-175 PF.

So if I bump up to 8.3 or so to get to 168 and switch to Small Rifle primers the gun may run flatter and require less powder? Or does the hotter primer have nothing to do with more gas?