Chuck D Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Now that I've made a decision in regards to caliber choice for my new Limited/Standard Division blaster, I'm thinking about installing one of the SVI style unported hybrid barrels in the gun. Reason being...I like the idea that the front sight remains stationary and does not move when the slide cycles. Another advantage is the added weight is up front (muzzle area) where it's needed the most (in my opinion). (SVI short dust cover frame is being used...not the long dust cover version.) Has anyone else thought about doing this? If so...why and if not...why not? Opinions sought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Don't think it is legal for for Limited. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 It is legal. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8058 The announcement is in the new Front Sight as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 My humble opinion - a huge advantage. More so than a heavy dust cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 My uneducated opinion: It will become THE configuration for Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Chuck, I haven't seen or shot one of those set up's but I would be interested in messing around with it. Why didn't you go with the long dust cover also?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I shot one (all of three round) while I was running chrono at the Buckeye Blast. I expected to "see more" out of it. But, I was firing slow-fire, and off the clock. I won't be trading in my current Blaster, but I would lean toward this setup if I were building new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Smitty, I would think that they use the short DC to offset the additional weight from the barrell, therefore maintaining approximately the same balance of an "Edge" type pistola. The non-cycling set-up on a full profile slide and long DC frame would be a nose heavy mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos Custom Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 There is no net extra weight in this type of setup. There is a rib on the barrel which adds weight to the barrel (not much) and there is a cut out in the slide that matches the rib (less weight on the slide). Net effect zero, also would not change the balance. There is less weight in the slide (reciprocating mass) but you are only talking about 1/4 to 1/2 oz. Not a major change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 27, 2004 Author Share Posted June 27, 2004 SmittyFL, Got a hell of a deal on a std. dust cover frame. Although I'm not too certain that the net weight gain would be zero, the draw for me is the fact that the front sight doesn't cycle with the slide like the comp gun days of old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Not to dispute Bob, but there is more than a net gain of zero. The design moves weight from the slide to the barel. The change of location will result in a lighter reciprocating weight and added weight on the barel where you need it. I haven't shot one yet, but the sight not moving has got to be a good thing. If it doesn't cost a fortune, I'm sending my SV back this winter for a conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLADETECH Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 HAS ANYBODY SHOT THIS GUN YET WITH THE LDC? IF SO HOW DO YOU LIKE IT ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I expected to "see more" out of it. But, I was firing slow-fire, and off the clock. I'll second this. A couple of weeks ago, at a local Lev. III, match I had a chance of shooting such a gun borrowed from a greek buddy. It was an SVI with long dustcover. I shot a full mag (18) of rounds both in slow-aimed fire and (heaven forbid) double taps (or controlled pairs, as per the current forums guidelines... ). The rounds I shot through it were my match loads (180grs JHP) that chronoed @ 177PF in my gun (but didn't have a chance to chrono them in this gun). My honest opinion is I didn't notice a difference with my SVI standard gun. I too would have expected to see more. I mean, with my gun I usually can see the front sight starting to rise, I loose it when it approaches the top of its vertical movement, and reacquire it while landing inside the rear sight leaf. I would have expected to be able to track the front sight for the whole movement, since it is fixed, not travelling with the slide, but in reality it had the very same behaviour of a slide-mounted front sight. At least for me. I've played with the idea of getting a second barrel and slide for my SVI, with this setup, but now I've discarded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Damn, I just asked for a quote from SVI to have my limited blaster converted to an unported hybrid. If there is no appearent difference, I'll just keep the money for something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Just my 2 cents for what it's worth, but a simple observation, this is just common sense but I'll put it out there. If the front sight moves should matter in the least since it is moving directly rearward in the same horizontal plane, actually it might be easier to track the sights with the sight attached to to slide because it has less vertical movement, thus less visable "bounce." The gun cycles so fast the eye can't track it the entire time anyway, so I think it might look cool, but as far as gaining any advantage, I can't imagine how there would be an advantage gained with a limited gun shooting major because the slide moves directly toward your face and is cycling in about .05 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 I'd love to read Brian's opinion on whether this would be an advantage or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Try shooting 15yd bill drills with the front site on the barrel. Makes a difference. Of course, the old BoMar compguns had a compensator, but crude by today's stds. Today's heavy-dust-cover limited gun with 4.something grains of powder is pretty close in recoil. The unported hybrid will speed up many shooters. It's comparable to having an Open gun that will keep the dot inside the optic lens the whole time, vs one where the dot jumps out of sight & back again. More feeling of watching, waiting, and smoothly working the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 We had this discussion a while ago... can't find the thread, though. I said what L2S said, BE had something else to say. Damn... wish I could find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Try shooting 15yd bill drills with the front site on the barrel. Makes a difference. Of course, the old BoMar compguns had a compensator, but crude by today's stds.Today's heavy-dust-cover limited gun with 4.something grains of powder is pretty close in recoil. The unported hybrid will speed up many shooters. It's comparable to having an Open gun that will keep the dot inside the optic lens the whole time, vs one where the dot jumps out of sight & back again. More feeling of watching, waiting, and smoothly working the trigger. How? I would love to hear why, not just that it will. Everything else being the same, the rear sight is still moving and as the rear sight moves away from the front sight (not that you could actually see it) would change the proportion (how big) the front sight is in the rear site. You will get more sight bounce with the sight on the end of the gun in recoil, that is given, so your comparing it to an open dot with the dot leaving doesn't really work. As the gun recoils and the slide comes back the FS stays lower in line than if it where on the end of the barrel, just look at any picture of a limited gun in recoil. Since your head is behind the gun, there is less flip in the sight if it moves with the slide unless I am totally missing some secret formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 I shot one of these set-ups (home grown version...not the SV version) yesterday. What impressed me was the fact that I could focus more clearly on the front sight because I could track it easier. In my opinion...the front sight will move up and down (muzzle flip) the same amount as if it was mounted on the slide BUT the front sight didn't move as much fore and aft like it does when it's mounted on the slide. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the front sight...not being mounted on the slide...becomes a "fixed focal point" that moves less and the reduction in movement allows the shooter to focus/track the sight easier and possibly quicker. WAY back when...before Clark and Plaxco cut ports in what was called "barrel weights" (the precursor to compensators) both gunsmiths mounted the front sight on the "barrel weights". Must have been SOME reason for doing so other than increasing the sight radius. This may work for some...may not work for others BUT the minute TGO or another "super squad" shooter wins a major tournament with this set-up...it will become THE modification to make. I liken this innovation to when The Burner showed up at the Miller Invitational with a Tasco PDP2 mounted on his Open blaster. It's all new now...next year it MAY just be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I guess what I'm trying to say is that the front sight...not being mounted on the slide...becomes a "fixed focal point" that moves less and the reduction in movement allows the shooter to focus/track the sight easier and possibly quicker. If you were shooting many shoots on one target that would make sense, but with IPSC shooting we shooting many targets, so we never really need a fixed focal point because our eyes are moving target, sight, target, sight, target, so in theory we are always keeping our eyes moving and a fixed focal point doesn't matter, and since the front sight is always at the front of the gun when you pull the trigger, that is fixed anyways. If I were to build a new gun I would probably use the barrel because I like the way it looks, it has way cool factor, but I can't see how it would make you shoot faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I hesitate to comment because I'm uncertain... At least a couple times in this thread I saw "I expected to see more," which echoes my feelings approximately. And I thought (many times) about everything you said in your last post Chuck, and yes, back in the day it seemed really cool to have the front sight mounted on the weight. But then as years went by and I kind of forgot about it and we all ended up shooting "Stock" guns, when I thought of this idea some years ago (and asked Amadon about it) I thought that would be the next secret trick for Limited Class. But then when I actually rigged one up and shot one, my first reaction was one of disappointment. Just felt like I didn't care anymore. I think over the years I learned to "see" so much better, what used to be or seem important wasn't any longer. My gut feeling at this point is that the conventional setup will track truer, and although it may be easier to "stick with the front sight" on the new setup, it will track more "wobbly." I can't really qualify that with anything measurable, so please don't attach to much significance to it. (I didn't read every post so I apologize if I'm stepping on someone's post...) But has anyone discussed the two very different visual appearances of the front and rear site moving backwards and forwards together (in the conventional setup), as opposed to with the new setup, during the recoil cycle, the front and rear sight will be expanding and contracting in relationship to each other? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 Lets try it from THIS angle. The crosshairs in a scope are "fixed"...you when shooting place the crosshairs in the center of what you want to hit and press the trigger. I'm all too aware that "in IPSC shooting, we shoot many targets" BUT one of the first techniques taught to any shooter is to focus on the front sight/dot when firing the shot. Different levels of "focus" can be used but sooner or later during your shooting...you WILL need to focus on the front sight to assure an accurate shot. If the front sight ...mounted on the barrel...doesn't move AS MUCH as if it were mounted on the slide...wouldn't it be easier (and most likely faster) to track? Up close - down and dirty "hosing" may not show the difference but targets at distance, partial targets or steel may show the difference. Thanks Brian for your opinion ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 (I didn't read every post so I apologize if I'm stepping on someone's post...) But has anyone discussed the two very different visual appearances of the front and rear site moving backwards and forwards together (in the conventional setup), as opposed to with the new setup, during the recoil cycle, the front and rear sight will be expanding and contracting in relationship to each other? Yep, I tried to make that point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Lets try it from THIS angle. The crosshairs in a scope are "fixed"...you when shooting place the crosshairs in the center of what you want to hit and press the trigger.I'm all too aware that "in IPSC shooting, we shoot many targets" BUT one of the first techniques taught to any shooter is to focus on the front sight/dot when firing the shot. Different levels of "focus" can be used but sooner or later during your shooting...you WILL need to focus on the front sight to assure an accurate shot. If the front sight ...mounted on the barrel...doesn't move AS MUCH as if it were mounted on the slide...wouldn't it be easier (and most likely faster) to track? Up close - down and dirty "hosing" may not show the difference but targets at distance, partial targets or steel may show the difference. Thanks Brian for your opinion ! If you fix the sight on the end of the barrel it moves more visually, just like BE observed. You can't see the sight coming back toward you when you watch it, the only motion you can really see is the sight bobbing when shooting (the vertical movement.) That being said, if you put the sight fixed on the end of the gun you increase the "bobbing" effect, not reduce it, so you are actaully making the sight harder to track if you increase the movement by leaving it on the end of the barrel, right? The sight is always at the end of the gun when you break the shot, and on steel and harder targets that is not a factor because the time you need to stop on the target, so how could increasing the motion of the front sight be faster on those targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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