Easier to make Master in the Younger Divisions?

[ExtremeShot]

A few years ago I read a comment or post or article about someone talking about how it was easier to make Master in the younger divisions like Production and Single Stack. The reasoning was that since Open and Limited have been around the longest, there are more people, more scores, and higher classifier scores in those divisions. In other words, the bar kept getting higher and higher because of the number of people and the number of submitted scores. So if you look at a younger division like Production and Single Stack, those divisions have not had the bar set as high (yet) because they are newer and less scores have been submitted. Therefore it would be easier to make Master in those divisions, relative to making Master in Open or Limited.

Does anyone remember seeing where this was posted? Can you send me a link?

Also, what are your thoughts on this?

The reason why I'm asking is because I made the mistake of repeating this information to someone and it offended them. It was just a passing comment during a stage one day. It was not said to offend, but that's the way it was taken.

Thanks for the help and comments.

Darren

[lee blackman]

Its probably cheaper to make master in production, but I don't see how it would be any easier. Its not the quantity of competition but the quality right?

[Flexmoney]

When the divisions started, Production was SET at 95% of Limited. Revolver was SET at 90%. That was for the high Hit Factors, across the board, for all classifiers. And, L-10 was the same as Limited, if I recall correctly. I forget what they did with SS...I am sure that info is around here.

Now, on some classifiers, those 5% & 10% cushions were about right. On other classifiers, they were too much...or, too little.

One might ask why they were set like that. The answer would seem to be that they were set so that people could get a classification in those divisions that approximated their level. without setting them, there would be no data to use to run the comparison.

Now, there is likely enough data where they can stand on their own, in most cases.

[ErichF]

I would bet ole TGO (Leatham) sets the bar pretty high in the Production Classifiers...I'm am pretty proud to be rated a B class shooter against him, or whoever has the HHF these days

Edited February 20, 2012 by ErichF

[ctay]

I follow your logic - question is does USPSA base the % off of all scores on a particular classifer ever or just for a specific period of time? IE am I compared to all scores on classifier CM 03-11 or just the ones in say the last year?

I'm new to this so I don't know the answer.

[Supermoto]

I don't think one division is easier than others, but some classifiers are certainly easier than others.

[Singlestack]

I forget what they did with SS...I am sure that info is around here.

My understanding is that they used the Lim-10 stats for the initial high percentage.

[ChuckS]

I would bet ole GTO (Leatham) sets the bar pretty high in the Production Classifiers...I'm am pretty proud to be rated a B class shooter against him, or whoever has the HHF these days

One question: why do you call Robbie a Pontiac?

[ErichF]

Right, TGO, sorry

Edited February 20, 2012 by ErichF

[blaster113]

I dont think it would be any easier to make M in the newer divisions since some of the top shooters in the sport shoot in those particular divisions.

[steel1212]

FYI, Single Stack uses L10 HHFs which most of those are based off Limited, so I would say no its harder to do it in SS than limited with any reload involved. As for production, you have to pretty much do it the same speed but with better hits. Maybe a touch slower but I wouldn't say any division is easier than the others. Like Open you get to use a tricked out race gun but you have to fly with that gun or your toast. I thought I was rolling along with revolver once until I got the scores back!

[beltjones]

A few years ago I read a comment or post or article about someone talking about how it was easier to make Master in the younger divisions like Production and Single Stack. The reasoning was that since Open and Limited have been around the longest, there are more people, more scores, and higher classifier scores in those divisions. In other words, the bar kept getting higher and higher because of the number of people and the number of submitted scores. So if you look at a younger division like Production and Single Stack, those divisions have not had the bar set as high (yet) because they are newer and less scores have been submitted. Therefore it would be easier to make Master in those divisions, relative to making Master in Open or Limited.

Does anyone remember seeing where this was posted? Can you send me a link?

Also, what are your thoughts on this?

The reason why I'm asking is because I made the mistake of repeating this information to someone and it offended them. It was just a passing comment during a stage one day. It was not said to offend, but that's the way it was taken.

Thanks for the help and comments.

Darren

That would assume that they use summary data to set the classifier HHFs, which they don't.

[beltjones]

When the divisions started, Production was SET at 95% of Limited. Revolver was SET at 90%. That was for the high Hit Factors, across the board, for all classifiers.

Except for the par time classifiers.

[jdphotoguy]

Let's face it, you need to be very good to make Master in any division, so I don't think there are any easy ways of doing it.

Edited February 20, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[DonovanM]

Speaking for Production at least, it definitely isn't any easier. I would say it's at least as difficult if not harder. The HHFs are too similar on most of the classifiers, and shooting Minor puts you at an immediate disadvantage with much more emphasis on accuracy. Shooting one charlie down will cost you 3-5% depending on the stage. Even with a GM time, two or three could put you out of Master.

I shot Table Stakes clean in 4.53 for a 93.6%. A few months later I shot it again down 1 Charlie in 4.55 for an 88... and this is a stage with partial targets at 10yds or so.

Edited February 28, 2012 by DonovanM

[GForceLizard]

The division & classification populations were visible on the old USPSA web site. Don't remember if this was classifiers shot or member counts. Is this available on the new site?

Just to wack the bees nest. Are there different skills or levels of skill required that differ by division. Let's say for example that the alignment of iron sights was tons harder than optics. That would be an arguement in favor of Open being easier. Any dope can put a dot on target. (Just an example, I'm not saying this is true.)

[DocMedic]

I shot Table Stakes clean in 4.53 for a 93.6%. A few months later I shot it again down 1 Charlie in 4.55 for an 88... and this is a stage with partial targets at 10yds or so.

Ack! Last month i decided to shoot a classfier with my production gun just for shitz and giggles and hit a one C hit Paper Poppers 03-05

48pts / 6.88sec = 82.74 HF

If I manage to hit the A

50pts / 6.88sec = 86.19 HF..

[GForceLizard]

New shooters can get good very fast. How many years did it take the USPSA GMs to get their GM rating after joining? Everything would equal out pretty quickly after starting something new, say 3 years?

[DonovanM]

When the divisions started, Production was SET at 95% of Limited. Revolver was SET at 90%. That was for the high Hit Factors, across the board, for all classifiers. And, L-10 was the same as Limited, if I recall correctly. I forget what they did with SS...I am sure that info is around here.

Now, on some classifiers, those 5% & 10% cushions were about right. On other classifiers, they were too much...or, too little.

One might ask why they were set like that. The answer would seem to be that they were set so that people could get a classification in those divisions that approximated their level. without setting them, there would be no data to use to run the comparison.

Now, there is likely enough data where they can stand on their own, in most cases.

This got me thinking, so I crunched some numbers a bit just for s's and g's.

I compared the overall match hit factors of last years Limited and Production National Champs.

Production - Ben

1729pts/259.11 seconds

HF 6.6728

Limited - Shannon

1730pts/229.36 seconds

HF 7.5427

6.6728/7.5427 x 100 = 88.47%

Now this is compounded over days and days of looong field courses with looots of reloads thrown in for Production, so let's do something else. Let's look at the two shortest courses of the match (8rds).

Stage 4

Production - Rob, HF 8.8235

Limited - BJ, HF 10.1744

x 100 = 86.72%

Stage 8

Production - Angus, HF 6.1633

Limited - Ted, HF 6.9565

x 100 = 88.60%

Difference between Limited and Production hit factors is still 11+%.

Make of this what you will, but I think this consistency in scoring differences is meaningful (somewhat). Now I'm not going to say that giving us a 5% difference across the board is bad or unfair or something. I like that it's harder, it's like a reverse handicap. It makes me feel a little better - well, not much - about the prospect of someday carrying around the same card as Ben Stoeger, because I doubt I will ever have the dedication to be anywhere near as good as him.

[Flexmoney]

Well, take El Prez. (Limited vs. Production)

A turn and draw...doesn't really matter if you have a race holster or not.

Major vs. Minor matters little ...as the high hit factor is likely to contain all the points, as well as being fast.

So, now we are down to the reload as being the real difference between divisions.

(this...for the 100%)

[DonovanM]

I agree. I just shot a 100% El Prez this Sunday (Prod). I shot it clean, and I think my load was a solid match time for me of ~1.2... The same HF would have gotten me a 96.93% in Limited. No issues there - although, it would have taken a lot less practice to hit that load if I had a forward pouch and a magwell.

[No.343]

I sometimes think that the only way I am going to make Master in revo is to shoot big matches. I've looked at the scores that Masters and GM have and they barely shoot an A class score on many of them.