Unrestrained Rottweilers

[3quartertime]

Thanks Eric,  I remember having conversations about this in the past.  Debunking 'The Myth' is great,  but there is a grey area in cases like this that I believe would still favor being on your own property/safe haven especially in regards to an animal.  Determining whether your life or limb is in jeopardy is something you would need to prove.  If a threat invades and surprises you in the leisure of say your home or fenced in yard the legal determination may sway more your way.  If you were enjoying the local public roadway and said possessed devil-dog comes out to ruin your ride what is the legal determination then.  Maybe the playful pup was just 'chasing' and was only trying to help you 'work out alittle faster'.  What if the evil-cur wasn't a Rott,  maybe it was a collie.  No judge would believe a full grown man could fear lassie was a threat!!!  I know I'm going WAY out of the box in ' what if's'  but if you shoot a dog for trying to attack you on your bike I think there would be lots of questions to answer.  

On the other hand if I just happen to be holding one of the new kittens during a break in my 'draw and fire two's'  in my back yard,  and the one-in-a-million rouge lassie charges into my yard to take me and the kittens head off,  if I put two .40's in her head in say 1.15 sec.s  I don't think the legal determination would be that hard.  ( once again I know the 'what if's' are flowing with wreckless abandon).

I'm not trying to start a big discussion on legal issues,  I just think shooting a dog on the road even if it is nipping at your heels would be a nightmare to explain.  Although I would rather talk to the cops about it afterwards than try and replace a chunk of my calf or worse.  

Twix tried to get me to read Ayoob's book a few years ago.  He reads volumes of like books constantly.  ( I think thats why he has such a big head!!!)  I usually just wait till he bores me to death telling me about them.  Guess I should go ahead and read that one!!!

(Edited by 3quartertime at 8:34 pm on Aug. 30, 2002)

[3quartertime]

Sorry to raise a dead dog.  ( bad pun I know)

I was assuming that the DT  that Eric was refering to was Duane Thomas.  Do you have anything to share Duane.?   I,  for one would like to hear.

(Edited by 3quartertime at 4:27 pm on Sep. 5, 2002)

[tightloop]

3/4 Time

I am not Duane, but in Tx, all you have to do to justify Deadly Force is to fear for your life.  The statue does not differentiate between psycho chainsaw killer or demon curr, just have to fear for your life.  

I for one wouldn't have an iota of hesitation dropping the hammer on a Rott chasing me down the road and no owner in sight or sound.  do they not have leash laws where you live?  you could go to jail in California for something similar.

[twix]

If 3QT drew and fired two to the head in 1.15 seconds, I'd say that lethal force was definitely required, because the dog would have to have the gun in his mouth.....

[3quartertime]

Only 'C' class dogs need apply!!!

[SAW45]

tightrope - it's more then just fearing for your life. You have to be able to prove to a jury that you feared for your life. In addition to that, the ole "reasonable person" premise comes into play. The jury will be told to compare what you did with what a"reasonable person" would do in the same circumstances. Easier said then done.

[EricW]

The only reason I asked if Duane Thomas would chime in is because he does instruction and I'm betting legal issues are included in his classes.  It's been about 10 years since I had my CCW class, so I'm a little outdated.

E

[tightloop]

Which state are we discussing here?  I teach the CHL in Tx and can tell you that an off leash Rott chasing you while you ride your bike could constitute fear of your life.

A prudent person would proceed in this manner.

1.  Try to get away, if unable to do that

2.  Kill the dog.

While most laws are written with people in mind, tx law says you may respond in kind as it pertains to people.  I think a jury would understand that I can't go bite for bite with a Rott.  Regardless, as the cliche goes; better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[jhgtyre]

In AZ the bad guy must have opportunity, means, and intent to inflict life threatening injury.  I think a rottweiler lunging at me has all three.  The other consideration is for the safety of others.  Are you in front of a playground full of kids or out in the boonies by yourself?  You have to excercise good judgement.  Do that and you will fare MUCH better if you go to trial.

-jhgtyre

[3quartertime]

I'm not sure what the  exact IN law reads on this.  I very, very rarely carry so I've not keep up on it.  My guess is that most of the laws would have to be interpreted to apply to a dog attack.

You guys seem much more knowledgable about this that I obviously am.   How about the other end of the picture.  Say you did shoot the Rott.  Assuming no other was harmed or put in harms way and that your word is the only proof that the dog did attack.  What kind of trouble would you possibly be in?  How much did your new Rott-throw-rug cost you?  I'm sure the owner could sue you in civil court,  but could you loose your carry permit?  Could you go to jail?  May sound silly considering your opponet was a dog,  but cruelty to animals is serious biz,  and to most of the world your a gun fanatic.  

Maybe I'm just stretching on the 'what if's' again.  

[tightloop]

i am sure it differs from state to state, but in Tx, assuming no witnesses, it would be your word against that of a dead Rott, who was off his leash and unsupervised.  Not much of a problem.

[Nik Habicht]

3/4x,

Nobody wants to be indicted or sued for using a weapon to defend oneself or other innocent parties.  However, getting chewed to death is the worse alternative.  Head-on collisions are bad.  Driving into a tree is also bad.  If however, I'm confronted with that choice, I'll pick the tree every time, because it's the lesser of two bad experiences, I'd rather not have in the first place.  Good luck!

[Flexmoney]

(Nik hates trees)  

[3quartertime]

---

Quote: from Flexmoney on 12:20 am on Sep. 8, 2002

(Nik hates trees)  

---

Thats cool.  I have my differences with the people that hug them!!!

I agree completely,  like tightloop said so well " Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".  Like I said,  maybe the situation that I 'supposed' isn't realistic enough.  I've never been attacked by a life threatening bad guy (luckily),  but I have been chased or scared by threatening dogs.  I guess that that situation seems alittle closer to home for me.  I doubt that the possible concequences would stop me from acting,  assuming the situation warrented action of course.  It just seems interesting to consider what they may be.

[Rick Newland]

I have eight Borzois, all of them could use a little extra exercise.  They normally make short work out of a rottie, plus they love jogging alongside a bike.  Want to borrow a couple.

[CSEMARTIN]

Steve,

I stumbled across this topic while doing a search for something else. I debated whether or not to post, but the exact same thing happened to me several years ago.

I used to cycle in rural areas. One day, out of the blue, I heard what sounded like a horse. I looked over and saw a huge rottweiler chasing me. I think he was probably playing, but who the hell knows or wants to find out. I took off harder than I had ever before. Needless to say, it pissed me off and still gets me irritated to this day.

Chris

[DougCarden]

A couple of years ago we had several calls on a Rott that got loose and was roaming around. We were able to find him and in this case also found the owner. He expected us to bring him the dog. Wrong.The Rott growled at me once. He was also less impressed when he showed up and I had the 870 out with me. Once he had the dog secured in his truck and he started trying to piss with me, I politely informed him that A) he was violating our leash law and would be prosecuted I had already almost been chomped by a Doberman and C) If we had to go after the Dog again and it was agressive it would be killed on the spot. As far as public safety goes, I will err on the side of keeping children safe. I know, "the children...." We had a kid get mauled several years ago in a neighboring community. I also told the dipshit that if the dog bit me or any one of our guys we would sue him for civil damages, and you should have seen his face light up. He moved out of town shortly after that. 20something kid that had no business owning such a fine animal.

Even though they are magnificent animals, we only have a split second to decide whether they are vicious or not. They cannot be reasoned with. If you have to drop them, drop them.

[Trader]

The full set of German Shepard toothmarks in my forearm came from "Saber", a waist high and very fit canine. I left a mark on Saber also. On the side of his head reads "HK USP". The Deputy who responded to this said deadly force was justified (which I knew) and never asked to see my NY pistol license.

[rhino]

DougC makes a good point ... sure, an individual rott (or other big dog) might be a teddy bear, but the potential for harm too great to wait to find out if you think you are threatened.

Now, if you're menaced by a toy dachshund, maybe you have more time to assess the situation before resorting to deadly force ... but not with a big dog.

[SiG Lady]

Small dogs, even if acting sorta vicious, can at least be tossed in a bag and hung in a tree until the owner arrives or until they frickin' chill out.

[rhino]

Or grabbed by a hind leg and whirled over one's head like a rope until they calm down.

I suppose that could be done with a rottweiller too, but it's trickier and requires a bit more upper body strength.

[MBaneACP]

Amen to Brother Flex...it's the ONWERS' fault if the dog is bonkers.

That said, the only time I ever drew down on a Rott was with a 2 1/2-inch M-19 .357 stoked with 125-grain screamers, and I WISHED I'D HAD BIGGER, like a 40mm grenade launcher! It was like watching an animated Volkswagen with teeth coming at me.

As it happened, I didn't have to cap the puppy (named Arnold, natch!). The owner, who'd been telling me what a vicious dog Arnold was and how I was right to be very afraid, had a sudden change of heart when the S&W materilized from the fanny pack. He actually started crying and threw himself on the dog, who tried to bite HIM! He said if I shot Arnold, I'd have to shoot him too. I won't even go into my response, but suffice to say it included the phrase, "...and salt the blankety-blank ground your blankety-blank house stood on!"

Re: Big dogs, I believe in "Tennessee rules"...it bites; it dies.

mb

[Ron Rodgers]

Or grabbed by a hind leg and whirled over one's head like a rope until they calm down.

Not exactly the same, but we had just adopted an adult Siberian Husky. He decided he didn't like my pulling him away from the neighbor's house and decided to tear into me. I had him by the collar and started spinning him around (only thing I could think of). Every time his feet hit the ground, he lunged at me. I finally spun my way close enough to the house to launch him through the (open) basement door. It all ended well, but really put a scare into me.

The neighbors later told me it was a rather comical sight. But then again, their perspective was a tad different!

[AikiDale]

My Bullmastiff weighs a mere 171 pounds at last vet visit. People not familiar with him are instictively apprehensive. I spent good money on a good trainer when he was a puppy to train the both of us. He most certainly is not allowed to wander the neighborhood terrorizing whomever should come along. I would recommend letting either the owner, or animal control know about this loose Rott. If the owner is just clueless perhaps he can be reasoned with and educated. Failing that,

carry a solid bullet in whichever pistol you decide to carry. My understanding from local LEO who have had to defend themselves from large dogs is that hollow points tend to bounce off thick skulls....