Trainer for mid-level shooter?

[cwsanfor]

Despite shooting about 1,000 rounds a month for almost two years, I am not where I want to be with accuracy. I finished in the middle of the pack at a GSSF match, and shoot okay, but not as well as several I know who shoot less. I think I have issues with trigger control (often low and left). I have tried to focus on the Enos/Leatham/IPSC/Combat approach, have studied Matt Burkett's videos and much material on the web. I've tried my trigger centered on the pad of my trigger finger, as well as Mas Ayoob's "power crease" position, read Enos's book twice, etc. I use the currently canonical isosceles stance, but wonder if I should loosen up and try the old Weaver or even one-handed stance, and maybe even the thumbs-down or (gulp) teacup grip. I have access to free instruction at the range I use, but I think they teach one way only. Oh yeah, and I am cross-dominant also, being right-handed and left-eyed, so I've considered trying to shoot left handed, and have issues keeping both eyes open. I use tape on the right lens of my shooting glasses.

I think one issue is that because I am much better at reloading than shooting, I spend too much time shooting benched over a chronograph. Maybe reloading's my "Spiritual Gift", and I should rejoice in my role as the Family's Reloader, but I grow weary of everybody I shoot with being more accurate than me, and am willing to throw some time and money at the issue.

Here's the question: does any have experience with trainers who will work with a mid-level shooter one-on-one, the shooter being neither a beginner nor someone currently much interested in "action", IDPA, IPSC, three-gun, or self-defense tactics per se? Someone in or near NC would be ideal, but if I was reasonably sure it would help, Arizona or whatever would not be out of the question. I think that maybe just one day with the right person might reboot me. My current goals are to regularly finish in the top 10% at GSSF matches, maybe later IPSC/IDPA, and then rifles.

Thanks in advance. Should I be posting this in another forum?

[Hi-Power Jack]

I have same problem - with trigger control.

I spent $450 for a course that can be summarized

as shooting the Dot Torture targets - I've been

working on them ever since - good way to learn

trigger control.

That, and shooting weak hand only - it magnifies

the problem, and very easy to work on trigger

control with the weak hand, because You Have To

or you miss:((

I'd try that before I spent another $450 learning

trigger control:)

Good luck,

Jack

[sroe3]

My trigger control was horrible when I started. I did daily dry fire for 15 or 20 minutes, often at a light colored wall or well lit IPSC target. My emphasis was seeing my sight alignment at the instant the shot broke. The goal of course is no sight movement. I'm actually practicing 3 things at once: calling my shots, not blinking, and trigger control. My problem was likely poor grip. When I have a trigger control relapse I grip tighter with my weak hand so my trigger press won't disturb the sight alignment.

[lugnut]

but wonder if I should loosen up and try the old Weaver or even one-handed stance, and maybe even the thumbs-down or (gulp) teacup grip.

No way in hell should you do that.

Oh yeah, and I am cross-dominant also, being right-handed and left-eyed, so I've considered trying to shoot left handed, and have issues keeping both eyes open. I use tape on the right lens of my shooting glasses.

Lots of top shooters are cross dominant- that doesn't cause shots to drop low left.

I'm almost wondering if you are being to analytical about this whole thing. How are you eyes? Can you see the front sight clearly? Getting good sight picture? Not sure what you mean about shooting so much over the chrono... but that wouldn't really help with anything.

The only thing I have to go on is your low left issue.... and you mention you trigger control- it does seem like you know what is causing your problem. Try double plugging at the range the next time you practice. Do you dry fire? Do you practice group shooting? (shooting the smallest possible group you can at varying distances). What happens then?

[cyburg]

When I'm working on trigger control , I shoot slow fire. I work on pulling the trigger so I get a suprise break and hold the trigger to the rear continue on focusing on the sights and slowly let the trigger out until you hear or feel the reset. Continue doing this for a few mags, as time goes by speed it up and you will be use to where the break is a suprise and shot groups will improve.

[benos]

At every practice session, shot some 5-shot groups, standing/freestyle, at 25 yards, until you can consistently shoot 2 - 2.5" groups. (A 1.5" group being the ultimate goal - if your gun will shoot that good.)

be

[cwsanfor]

Gentlemen,

I much appreciate your advice, and that given me at another forum (can I say that?).

To sum up the excellent suggestions I've gotten, I plan to:

1) Do what Brian said, "shoot some 5-shot groups, standing/freestyle, at 25 yards",

2) Dry fire 15 minutes every morning with a penny but without the laser,

3) Mix dummy rounds or Snap Caps at random at the range,

4) Have an expert friend examine my grip, and particularly my trigger action (jerking? speeding up at the break?),

5) Re-read Brian's book, restudy Burkett's DVD's 1-3 and 7, probably subscribe to Vogel's videos,

6) Take a break from round development as soon as I finish this,

7) Get an Advantage Arms .22 conversion, and warm up .22>9mm>.40S&W>10mm instead of 10mm>40>9mm,

8) Double-plug my ears,

9) Then, spend some one-on-one time with Chis Tilley, who is only an hour away, in Raleigh, and appears to be a fair shot and good trainer.

If all that fails, I will work on zen-like acceptance and humility, accept my place in the Shooting World, and stop hanging out with such good shooters.

[trickpony]

cwsanfor, sounds like you need to speak with Manny Bragg about his training classes. Manny does an amazing job at helping shooters at any skill level but for me he helped me learn trigger control (although I don't always use it) and helped me get from a C class shooter to almost M in about a year.

If you need help contacting Manny let me know but he can be found at Universal Shooting Academy

[lugnut]

At every practice session, shot some 5-shot groups, standing/freestyle, at 25 yards, until you can consistently shoot 2 - 2.5" groups. (A 1.5" group being the ultimate goal - if your gun will shoot that good.)

be

Damn- a buddy of mine and I couldn't do that from a bench at just less than 30 yards!! We were shooting our CZs from the custom shop. Would have liked to have a ransom rest....

My 625... yeah that think is a tac driver... 1+ inch groups from 15-20 is doable... in DA. Sorry for OT...

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

At every practice session, shot some 5-shot groups, standing/freestyle, at 25 yards, until you can consistently shoot 2 - 2.5" groups. (A 1.5" group being the ultimate goal - if your gun will shoot that good.)

be

Damn- a buddy of mine and I couldn't do that from a bench at just less than 30 yards!! We were shooting our CZs from the custom shop. Would have liked to have a ransom rest....

Change ammo, the gun will do it

[lugnut]

At every practice session, shot some 5-shot groups, standing/freestyle, at 25 yards, until you can consistently shoot 2 - 2.5" groups. (A 1.5" group being the ultimate goal - if your gun will shoot that good.)

be

Damn- a buddy of mine and I couldn't do that from a bench at just less than 30 yards!! We were shooting our CZs from the custom shop. Would have liked to have a ransom rest....

Change ammo, the gun will do it

Yeah may be it... I was shooting 147gr Berrys with 231 he was shooting 160gr Bayou with N320.... not as good as a nice FMJ or JHP I guess. Could have been us too.

[Singlestack]

3) Mix dummy rounds or Snap Caps at random at the range,

Don't bother with this. It is a huge waste of time and ammo.

Learn how to shoot your hold. In other words, don't make the gun fire when it crosses the spot you want to hit. Let it suprise you everytime.

[lugnut]

3) Mix dummy rounds or Snap Caps at random at the range,

Don't bother with this. It is a huge waste of time and ammo.

+1 to this. Many shooters will have post ignition movement when the hammer drops. It's when it's preignition movement that is't the problem. Enos and Burkett talked about this on the videos.

[pjb45]

I was at an Area 2 match, when Taran told me I needed to work on my trigger control. So I promptly talked with him about it. I called Mark Hanish about his trigger technique. I called some others I knew. Then I spent about five phone calls with BE on it. I told BE what I had heard from all the GMs before I talked to him.

BE pretty much said, use whatever technique which allows you to break/release the shot without disturbing the sight alignment. You can pin the trigger, slap the trigger, use your middle, end or joint of your finger, you just can not disturb the sight alignment.

The Bulleyes Shooting sight has a diagnostic diagram that explains the shot error. Look it up. Lots of good info on that sight since they are accuracy fiends.

I use a Tactical Solutions .22 conversion unit. It works great for getting rounds down range with great accuracy. I use to spend time on a 4 inch .22 plate rack in practice. 4 inch plates are not forgiving at 15-25 yards are not forgiving.

Forget weak and strong hand for a while. There are two many other variables in play with weak and strong hand.

The dot drill is awesome.

Look at Robbie's YouTube video for Action Targets. This is one of the best training segments I have seen in a long time. It will tell you immediately your issues.

Chris does seem to know a little about shooting. A class with him is worth the bucks! But view Robbie's Action Target Vid first.

[grapemeister]

Sounds like you’re flinching, which is typical for shots going to 7 or 8 o’clock. Of course, it could be something else, or more than one problem, but that is where my money is. It took me almost a year to concur my flinch, and it still comes back every once in a while. When it comes back I concentrate even harder on my front sight focus, and having that very determined desire to watch the front sight lift out of the notch. But, the concentration and desire comes without tension, and stress.

Sometimes it helps me to count numbers like counting backwards from a given number but not counting to a particular number. I just pull the trigger while counting, and let the shot be a surprise. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it's kind of a distraction, so I don't have so much on my mind.

Sometimes I use a timer, too. I hit the timer, but before it goes off, I already have the sight picture and the trigger is prepped for the 1st shot. I break the shot as soon as the timer goes off, and without hesitation. That trick really helps me with targets 25 yards, and beyond.

Keep working at it, and asking questions. You'll get it eventually. Getting some help from a shooter at Chris Tilly's level is an excellent move. I would jump at the chance for that kind of help.

[beltjones]

Ever heard the serenity prayer? "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Believe it or not, you can apply it to your shooting to improve your accuracy.

Let me help you with the wisdom part:

Things you can change: Your front sight focus. Your trigger control.

Things you can't control: The wobble of the front sight on the target. The fact that the gun is going to recoil and make a loud noise. The fact that the target and the rear sight will be blurry (assuming you're not using a dot). Everything else.

Most people I see having consistent accuracy problems are not using a hard front sight focus, and are instead either using an intermediate focal distance so everything is equally blurry, or they're rapidly shifting their focus from the target to the front sight to the rear sight and back again in an attempt to keep everything in focus at the same time. Don't do that. Just focus hard on the front sight.

Another issue is breathing. With a pistol you have to breathe in order to maintain visual acuity.

Breathing (and the fact that we're bipedal animals) will result in the front sight "wobbling" on the target. Forget about that - it's not under your immediate control for the next shot. "Embrace the wobble" as they say. Do NOT try to time the wobble - it will only result in a bad shot.

Instead of timing the wobble, just focus on the front sight and feel every part of the trigger all the way through the entire pull. Take out the slack, get up to the ragged edge, and let the shot break on its own. Dry fire practice will help this a lot, and so will a couple of other practice ideas. You can fire rounds into the backstop with your eyes closed (safely!) to cut down on mental inputs to allow yourself to focus more on the trigger pull. You can also fire rounds into the backstop - not at a target - to allow yourself to focus on the front sight without getting distracted by a target.

Anyway, try those concepts. If you can manage to focus on the things you can change, and if you can accept (and forget) the things you can't change, I think you will see an improvement in your shooting. Good luck!

Edited February 1, 2012 by beltjones

[cwsanfor]

Ever heard the serenity prayer? "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Believe it or not, you can apply it to your shooting to improve your accuracy.

Let me help you with the wisdom part:

Things you can change: Your front sight focus. Your trigger control.

Things you can't control: The wobble of the front sight on the target. The fact that the gun is going to recoil and make a loud noise. The fact that the target and the rear sight will be blurry (assuming you're not using a dot). Everything else.

Most people I see having consistent accuracy problems are not using a hard front sight focus, and are instead either using an intermediate focal distance so everything is equally blurry, or they're rapidly shifting their focus from the target to the front sight to the rear sight and back again in an attempt to keep everything in focus at the same time. Don't do that. Just focus hard on the front sight.

Another issue is breathing. With a pistol you have to breathe in order to maintain visual acuity.

Breathing (and the fact that we're bipedal animals) will result in the front sight "wobbling" on the target. Forget about that - it's not under your immediate control for the next shot. "Embrace the wobble" as they say. Do NOT try to time the wobble - it will only result in a bad shot.

Instead of timing the wobble, just focus on the front sight and feel every part of the trigger all the way through the entire pull. Take out the slack, get up to the ragged edge, and let the shot break on its own. Dry fire practice will help this a lot, and so will a couple of other practice ideas. You can fire rounds into the backstop with your eyes closed (safely!) to cut down on mental inputs to allow yourself to focus more on the trigger pull. You can also fire rounds into the backstop - not at a target - to allow yourself to focus on the front sight without getting distracted by a target.

Anyway, try those concepts. If you can manage to focus on the things you can change, and if you can accept (and forget) the things you can't change, I think you will see an improvement in your shooting. Good luck!

Thanks, very good points. I'm heading out to the indoor range in a minute, and will give that a shot, as it were.

Umm, yes, I'm very familiar with that prayer. It's applicable to an amazingly wide range of issues.

[DFWO]

I feel like I'm probably at the same level...

Do you guys find that shooting w/ a .22 conversion helps at all?

[cwsanfor]

So, I went to Caliber's today and was putting some of the tips you all offered into practice. I also had Kenny, who works at my local indoor range, Caliber's, check my grip, and I seem to have unconsciously fallen into a "death grip", squeezing the grip too hard. I loosened up and my groups were reduced about 50%, so there's some progress already. I think I had some limp-wristing early on, and mistook an overly firm grip with locking my wrists. I'm within the bowling pin freehand at 65', but that's about it. However, I suprised myself at 30', shot pretty good, well enough to improve my score at GSSF.

I like the competition springs in the G34. That may also have helped some: I probably should have only changed one thing at a time. I know I shot much better with the G34 than the G19 today, and that's often not been the case. Kenny suggested I focus on one gun, but that's hard for me to commit to, so I'll try the increased power trigger spring in the other Glocks, except the G26, which I carry.

I'm going to shoot more, check in with Kenny on basic grip and stance stuff, continue dry firing daily, read and study the DVD's for about a month, then see Chris Tilley. It may be useful to learn what I can from more than one coach.

So feel to continue to chime in. I'll post if anything significant happens to my performance, in case it helps someone like DFWO.

[E K]

Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. 100% focus on the front sight. It is helping me.

[Captain204mike]

i know this helped me a good bit, still not where i need to be, but i have a glock, so i got online and bought a reset trigger system for it so i could dry fire multiple times without having to reset the trigger my self by slide action, it is modified trigger with a little heavier trigger weight and it just resets after each dry fire

[GmanCdp]

i would go find a club that has a Bullseye club or NRA bullseye type club and give it at least 6months to a year shooting..

[DFWO]

i know this helped me a good bit, still not where i need to be, but i have a glock, so i got online and bought a reset trigger system for it so i could dry fire multiple times without having to reset the trigger my self by slide action, it is modified trigger with a little heavier trigger weight and it just resets after each dry fire

have a link?

[kevin c]

"shots low and left"

Both of a pair on the target, or just the second? For me, at least, there's a tendency to have the second shot go low/left. Multiple possible interrelated contributers - inconsistent grip/recoil recovery/trigger press/rushing the shot.

Do you have small hands? Be sure the gun fits you. I started out with guns that really didn't fit me well (size 6.5 gloves) and which added to all the things mentioned above.

[steveaikens]

Here's the question: does any have experience with trainers who will work with a mid-level shooter one-on-one, the shooter being neither a beginner nor someone currently much interested in "action", IDPA, IPSC, three-gun, or self-defense tactics per se? Someone in or near NC would be ideal, but if I was reasonably sure it would help, Arizona or whatever would not be out of the question. I think that maybe just one day with the right person might reboot me. My current goals are to regularly finish in the top 10% at GSSF matches, maybe later IPSC/IDPA, and then rifles.

I understand that like all of us, when we have a shooting issue, we want get it worked out right now - not later. However, there are times just working on it ourselves with some quality advise from others, as you've gotten here, until we have a chance to attend some serious training may be the solution we're looking for.

Bruce Gray and his staff have a Practical Fundamentals Course scheduled - June 8-10, 2012 - Smith Mountain Lake, VA. Check it out here: This will really help.

Good luck.

Aikens