Luv2rideWV Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am currently using W231 and 200 grain LSWC bullets because these are the components my friend uses and I'm a new reloader. First, what is a good charge to make about a 170 power factor with W231 and the 200gr LSWC? Second, what makes a "softer" shooting round? Third, everybody says that Clays is a better powder, so how exactly does the Clays compare to the W231? What are the advantages? Thanks for the advice, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 5.8 grs of 231 will make major with a 200 gr LSWC in all 3 of my 1911's. 172-175PF I've loaded about 90-100K, never used anything but 231. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake32 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i use 4.3 gr clays on a 200gr lswc in 45acp and get 176 pf. its about as soft as a 45 will get. i use a 14lb recoil spring. best load i have ever shot in that gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob DuBois Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Put a lot of lead 200 gn bullets down range. I also like Clays 4.3 with the 200 gn bullet. Used 231 for years and still do it's just the old stand by works fine, might drop down to 5.6 till you chronograph your pistol. Had good results with 4.6 of Red Dot Also. If you have 231 by all means give it a try before trying other powders. 231 meters great easy to work with and is more forgiving than Clays. Once your used to your machine venture out and try some of the other powders. Crimp, OAL also come into play just get the ammo tuned to the pistol then try some of the other powders to see which groups best in your shooter. 200gn lead in a 45, good way to spend an afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) 231 is one of my favorite powders due to its versatility. You can use it for almost any caliber used in "the games". I will add a warning with it. I have had two double charges in my reloading career. Both with 45 and 231. The 45 is a big case and there aren't many powders that you can't double charge in that big sucker, but it doesn't take much 231 to have a good load and a double charge is hard to spot with a small amount of powder. I use vhit n320 for 45 now. Partially because I have a few kegs of it for my limited guns, partially because a combination of 320 and 230's fells better to my hand than anything I have tried, and partially because I think that N320 is a gift from heaven to us mortals. It is the absolute best all around powder that I know of. I use it for 9, fow-tay, and 45. there are those that say it I too expensive, but come on, is another $15/thousand really a problem for you? Yes, it is harder to find. It is awesome. Buy lots when it is available. Edited January 10, 2012 by latech15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I shot W231 for years before switching to Clays. Clays will feel softer at the same PF, you use less(cheaper),its cleaner, and I think the report is not as loud. I couldn't find a reason to shoot W231 anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thank you all for the replies. I'll load up about 10 rounds each of 5.6, 5.7, and 5.8 of W231 to have ready to chronograph later this month. Also, depending on the price, I may try some Clays when all of the W231 is gone - unless I'm so happy by that point that I don't want to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) As often happens I'll add something a little different from my experience. I've used Clays, 231 and N320 with my 230gr 45 loads. IN both semi and revos. They are both low volume powders in the 45 and fill the case about the same when making major PF. I have actually found the Clays loads to be the dirtiest from what I recall... it's been a while since I've used the 231. N230 might have a slight edge for less smoke but it's not a huge difference. Recoil... I might give a slight edge to Clays or N320 for recoil but I must say.. at similar PF... in a match I can tell virtually no difference. I've been know to fall into the trap of "chasing" the perfect load... and I am a huge advocate of using fast powders and heavy bullets... but it's been a futile effort for the most part. They are very similar in 230 from my experience. I think N320 and 231 are great as they can be used almost all of my reloads including 9, 40, 45 and 38sp. Clays is not something I have tried in 9 or 38sp. Edited January 10, 2012 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am currently using W231 and 200 grain LSWC bullets because these are the components my friend uses and I'm a new reloader. First, what is a good charge to make about a 170 power factor with W231 and the 200gr LSWC? Second, what makes a "softer" shooting round? Third, everybody says that Clays is a better powder, so how exactly does the Clays compare to the W231? What are the advantages? Thanks for the advice, Jim As lugnut noted, heavy bullets and fast burning gunpowders are the usual formula for soft shooting loads. odds are that you'd get a "softer" shooting load with a 230 grain bullet. http://38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tavman Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I have found Clays to be much cleaner than W231, WST, Titegroup, or Unique in my .45 acp loads. I have settled with 3.6 grains of Clays under a Bear Creek 230g molly bullet. 1.26 oal 171 PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Clean? For a test, I fired my 231/lead reloads in a Kimber Series 1 till it choked. I would lock back the slide, wipe out what I could reach and relube. No field strip. I went 4200 rounds before it choked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Clean? For a test, I fired my 231/lead reloads in a Kimber Series 1 till it choked. I would lock back the slide, wipe out what I could reach and relube. No field strip. I went 4200 rounds before it choked. I'm really starting to like you - guns should be able to work dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Clean? For a test, I fired my 231/lead reloads in a Kimber Series 1 till it choked. I would lock back the slide, wipe out what I could reach and relube. No field strip. I went 4200 rounds before it choked. I'm really starting to like you - guns should be able to work dirty. My grandkids adore me....their parents, not as much. I agree on the dirty gun comment though. After that test it was pretty easy to go 2500 rds or so between field strips. But some guys like to clean their guns. I have no idea why, it must be some kinda mental defect from inhaling too much Hoppes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 As lugnut noted, heavy bullets and fast burning gunpowders are the usual formula for soft shooting loads. odds are that you'd get a "softer" shooting load with a 230 grain bullet. Thanks for the link to the 38 Super page - GREAT INFO; I saved it to my favorites to use again later. Now, I need to determine which works better for me: quick recoil or slow recoil. FWIW, I think the slower recoil is more pleasant; some of the 200 gr loads I've played with lately feel a lot like some hotter 40 S&W rounds, and the feel of 230 gr ball ammo is one of the things I like. As for the slow versus fast issue, do you think the experience or skill level of the shooter matters? Do you think a preference would appear if a person could see what was being used by the real top level shooters, like the top handful at the Single Stack Nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Clean? For a test, I fired my 231/lead reloads in a Kimber Series 1 till it choked. I would lock back the slide, wipe out what I could reach and relube. No field strip. I went 4200 rounds before it choked. I'm really starting to like you - guns should be able to work dirty. My grandkids adore me....their parents, not as much. I agree on the dirty gun comment though. After that test it was pretty easy to go 2500 rds or so between field strips. But some guys like to clean their guns. I have no idea why, it must be some kinda mental defect from inhaling too much Hoppes. Twenty years ago, I enjoyed cleaning as much as shooting. Now there is no time. Some guns, like a 22 target pistol, shouldn't be cleaned all the time anyway. Now, the 1911 gets wiped off and relubed prior to a match - cleanings only happen when its so dirty it embarrasses me. Beyond that, I figure it only needs detail stripped about once a year for a real cleaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 As lugnut noted, heavy bullets and fast burning gunpowders are the usual formula for soft shooting loads. odds are that you'd get a "softer" shooting load with a 230 grain bullet. Thanks for the link to the 38 Super page - GREAT INFO; I saved it to my favorites to use again later. Now, I need to determine which works better for me: quick recoil or slow recoil. FWIW, I think the slower recoil is more pleasant; some of the 200 gr loads I've played with lately feel a lot like some hotter 40 S&W rounds, and the feel of 230 gr ball ammo is one of the things I like. As for the slow versus fast issue, do you think the experience or skill level of the shooter matters? Do you think a preference would appear if a person could see what was being used by the real top level shooters, like the top handful at the Single Stack Nationals? I'll give you my 2 cents. When I first started shooting... I didn't notice the differences. As my shooting skills improved my awareness did as well. I have since decided to shoot the heavier bullets with faster powders when I can. Now that being said there are other shooters better than me that like that snappy, fast cycling feeling. I think many of the top shooters do use the heavy bullets/fast powders. I know Sevigny does and that's good enough for me. Hey bottom line- shoot what you like and makes you feel happy. I'm serious. Find something that works and focus on the shooting skills. If you enjoy tinkering with different loads because it's fun, then try it. I'm at the point now where switching powders and bullets isn't going to help me at all. Oh and on the clean powder this and that. I call BS on this. I use CMJ/Plated with Clays, 231 and N320 in 45, 9, 40, 38sp... you shoot a lot- the guns get dirty. Plain and simple. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds with 231, Clays, Titegroups, VV and others. I don't notice one being cleaner than another. When I practice I shoot 150-300 rounds.... so they are dirty when I'm done. Sometimes I clean them sometimes I don't. I will always clean them a tad before any big match- to do otherwise wouldn't be wise IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) I'll give you my 2 cents. When I first started shooting... I didn't notice the differences. As my shooting skills improved my awareness did as well. I have since decided to shoot the heavier bullets with faster powders when I can. Now that being said there are other shooters better than me that like that snappy, fast cycling feeling. I think many of the top shooters do use the heavy bullets/fast powders. I know Sevigny does and that's good enough for me. Hey bottom line- shoot what you like and makes you feel happy. I'm serious. Find something that works and focus on the shooting skills. If you enjoy tinkering with different loads because it's fun, then try it. I'm at the point now where switching powders and bullets isn't going to help me at all. Oh and on the clean powder this and that. I call BS on this. I use CMJ/Plated with Clays, 231 and N320 in 45, 9, 40, 38sp... you shoot a lot- the guns get dirty. Plain and simple. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds with 231, Clays, Titegroups, VV and others. I don't notice one being cleaner than another. When I practice I shoot 150-300 rounds.... so they are dirty when I'm done. Sometimes I clean them sometimes I don't. I will always clean them a tad before any big match- to do otherwise wouldn't be wise IMO. Thanks for the help. I'll try some Clays with a 230 grain bullet next. I may even try dropping the weight of the recoil spring just a bit. However, I mostly just need to work at getting better. Edited January 16, 2012 by Luv2rideWV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noylj Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I usually shoot over 2k rounds of 200gn L-SWC and 6.0gn of Unique without the gun choking or needing any cleaning. Most of my 1911s are custom and tight. I find AA2 to be a lot more accurate. From my experience, each gun is different and my major load could be a minor load for you. Here is some of my compiled data and you will see that PF varies more by gun/barrel than by just charge weight. Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Notes Power Factor COL Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.2 748 Target 150 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.2 748 150 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.4 771 Start 154 1.225 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.4 798 50 yd 160 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.4 718 25 yd 144 Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.5 808 Start/Accurate 162 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.5 808 Start 162 Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.5 719 Start 144 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 4.6 760 V. Acc. 152 swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.6 739 Start/Accurate 148 1.185 Case L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.6 Basic Bullseye/Practice 0 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 4.6 760 152 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 4.6 745 149 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 4.6 714 143 1.202 Lead 200 231/HP38 4.8 804 Start 161 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.8 800 Start 160 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.8 796 Start 159 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.8 796 50 yd 159 swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.8 650 4.8-5.3gn 130 Carroll L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 787 V. Acc. 157 Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 892 Max 178 Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 811 Max 162 swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 803 Max 161 1.185 RCBS 45-201-KT SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 810 162 1.240 Lyman 452460 200 231/HP38 5.0 805 161 1.161 RCBS #45-201K L-SWC 201 231/HP38 5.0 800 161 LS L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 797 159 1.240 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 5.0 766 153 1.202 Montana LBT-RFN 200 231/HP38 5.0 739 148 1.241 Hdy L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 714 143 1.225 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.1 Target 0 1.224 L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 5.2 800 Start 160 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.2 739 Start 148 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.2 850 Max/Favorite 170 1.250 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.3 Target-Accurate 0 Hdy L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.3 Accurate 0 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.3 Accurate 0 Hdy L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 5.4 800 Start 160 1.200–1.225 Hdy L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 5.4 800 Start 160 1.200–1.225 Lyman 452630 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.4 769 Start 154 1.235 Lyman #452630 200 231/HP38 5.4 769 Start 154 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.4 Favorite 0 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 5.4 857 171 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 5.4 821 164 1.202 Hdy lead C/T 200 231/HP38 5.4 814 163 L-SWC, L-RN 200 231/HP38 5.5 910 Max 182 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 865 Acc 173 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 908 182 RCBS 45-201-KT SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 880 176 1.240 LS L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 865 173 1.240 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 850 170 Carroll L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 850 170 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 841 168 1.263 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 840 168 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.6 920 Max 184 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.6 914 Max 183 1.225 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.6 854 171 L-SWC 195 231/HP38 5.7 962 Max 188 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.7 918 184 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.8 914 Max 183 Carroll L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.8 838 168 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.9 899 USPSA/IPSC 180 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.9 920 184 1.250 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.9 899 180 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 902 USPSA/IPSC 180 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 987 Max 197 Lyman 452460 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 987 Max 197 1.161 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 850 Hardball load 170 1.160 Lyman #452460 200 231/HP38 6.0 987 Acc 197 RCBS #45-201K L-SWC 201 231/HP38 6.0 955 192 LS L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 945 189 1.240 Bull-X L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 902 180 Hdy L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 880 176 1.225 Lyman 452630 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.1 885 Max 177 1.235 Lyman #452630 200 231/HP38 6.1 885 Max 177 swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.1 850 Max 170 Hdy L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 6.2 900 Max 180 1.200–1.225 L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 6.5 950 Max 190 Hdy L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 6.5 950 Max 190 1.200–1.225 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.5 923 Max 185 Lyman 452460 200 231/HP38 6.5 1035 207 1.161 RCBS 45-201-KT SWC 200 231/HP38 6.5 1035 207 1.240 LS L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.5 1026 205 1.240 Montana LBT-RFN 200 231/HP38 6.5 953 191 Montana LBT-RFN 200 231/HP38 6.5 953 191 1.241 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2rideWV Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 This thread is pretty much closed, but I wanted to follow up with what worked real well for me: 4.2gr Clays under a 200gr LSWC seated to an overall length of 1.24" At the SS Nationals, this gave me a 169 power factor in my Springfield 1911. That will be my go-to load for that gun - done searching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) My experience with clays and 200gr LSWC. Velocities taken with Taurus PT1911, not the Commander. Edited August 8, 2012 by Steve RA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) Im still new to reloading, but from what I've gathered you'll have softer recoil using clays, and with a heavier bullet. I'm making about 171 power factor with a 230grain bullet, with 3.5 grains of Clays powder @ 1.23" ( out of a 5" S&W 625 revolver ) Edited August 8, 2012 by alecmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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