Long Range Stages and Uncontrollable Variables

[Doug H.]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

What match did you shoot in W.VA? That match was all mid range at most, except for the Barrett. Stage 1 41 yards. stage 2 about 100, stage 3 225, stage 4 under 200. Even if I was goin to agree with you about long range stages, and I don't, none of those stages were long range.

Long range tests skills that can not be measured at short range, no matter the size of the target. Wind, distance are all part of actually using a rifle. Weather changes, deal with it. Shoot long enough and you'll get to shoot in all weather conditions.

You're not going to make everyone happy. Even if you split the long range stages onto different days people will complain about wind in the afternoon, light in the morning, afternoon, midday whatever.

Just sack up and shoot Nancy

I think the only logical response to that post is this...

BWAHAHA!!! I told everybody this was going to happen!! BTW if I ever have a question I'll be sure to call you Chuck. You seems to know everything about EVERYTHING!! I think you would be a shoe-in for the mayor of the multi-gun forum.

Too late Jesse, you are already Mayor of 3 Gun Town. Chuck, by virtue of his status and demeanor, should be Sheriff of 3 gun town.

Doug

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse, is the long range stuff becoming more popular at other matches or is it just the RM3G, FB3G, etc?

Definitely! For instance the 4 stage 3 gun nation shoot in match had long range shooting on all 4 stages despite the fact that a typical 8-10 stage match has long range shooting on 2-3 or about 25-30% of the stages.

It's the easiest way to make the matches harder.

What match did you shoot in W.VA? That match was all mid range at most, except for the Barrett. Stage 1 41 yards. stage 2 about 100, stage 3 225, stage 4 under 200. Even if I was goin to agree with you about long range stages, and I don't, none of those stages were long range.

Long range tests skills that can not be measured at short range, no matter the size of the target. Wind, distance are all part of actually using a rifle. Weather changes, deal with it. Shoot long enough and you'll get to shoot in all weather conditions.

You're not going to make everyone happy. Even if you split the long range stages onto different days people will complain about wind in the afternoon, light in the morning, afternoon, midday whatever.

Just sack up and shoot Nancy

I think the only logical response to that post is this...

BWAHAHA!!! I told everybody this was going to happen!! BTW if I ever have a question I'll be sure to call you Chuck. You seems to know everything about EVERYTHING!! I think you would be a shoe-in for the mayor of the multi-gun forum.

Too late Jesse, you are already Mayor of 3 Gun Town. Chuck, by virtue of his status and demeanor, should be Sheriff of 3 gun town.

Doug

Can the Mayor appoint a Sheriff or do we need to hold an election?

[Dan Sierpina]

How do we make the match the more similar for every shooter?

Take up High Power, Jesse. Shooters of the same classification are on the line at the same time to have the conditions the same.

[ArmdCtzn]

This is the image that pops into my head when you guys start talking about the mayor of 3Gun Town.

Edited December 16, 2011 by ArmdCtzn

[Jesse Tischauser]

How do we make the match the more similar for every shooter?

Take up High Power, Jesse. Shooters of the same classification are on the line at the same time to have the conditions the same.

Come on Dan! I consider you one of those great minds with great ideas when it comes to this sort of thing. I know you have better ideas than HighzzzzzzPower?!?!

I guess I'm the only one that wants to find solutions to the disparities in this sport?

[blu46and2]

There was some discussion on our squad at FB3G this year that if Jim could just build a dome over the entire 10K acre facility at Spartan Tactical, similar to what Jerry Jones did for Cowboy stadium that would be perfect! Oh, and a retractable roof would be nice as well.

-Aaron

[Stlhead]

How do we make the match the more similar for every shooter?

Take up High Power, Jesse. Shooters of the same classification are on the line at the same time to have the conditions the same.

Come on Dan! I consider you one of those great minds with great ideas when it comes to this sort of thing. I know you have better ideas than HighzzzzzzPower?!?!

I guess I'm the only one that wants to find solutions to the disparities in this sport?

Jessie, I am starting to feel like we have hit on this subject before. Our sport is about the adversity and inconsistencies. The idea is for each shooter to solve the shooting problem that they are presented with in the best way they can. It is the variety of the experience that holds the allure for many of us, if we all faced the same sterile challenge it would just not be as entertaining. There are many other activities that offer a more equitable challenge to every competitor, perhaps you would enjoy one of those sports more? Sometimes the wind blows, sometimes it rains, clouds cast shadows, and sometimes an RO misses a foot fault. Shit happens, and that can be the most entertaining part of our sport. I don't know how you approach a match, but no matter who I am shooting against, I am always competing against myself the hardest. I want to do my best, I want to perform to the highest level I can, to raise to the challenge and do better than I did before. How I end up in the standings, be it first or last is of much less importance than how I performed compared to how I perceive I could have performed. I don't care if the stage was harder to shoot when I shot it or easier, I care about how well I shoot the stage when the buzzer goes off. 3 gun is not fair, very little if anything in life is fair, we do what we can to make it fun and drink beer afterwards.

[GorillaTactical]

The Arkansas match highlights Jesse's point to the max for me....I'm a pathetic long range shooter....it's by far the weakest thing I do with long guns at the match....yet, at the Ark 2011 Champ. I finished 2nd in tac (i think..mighta been 3rd) on the stage.......I shot it around 11:00AM, sun illuminating the targets, 5 mph wind, no clouds, no fog, no rain, etc etc etc....some other shooters, who kick my butt on LR 99% of the time, weren't even close to my score (shot less than 66% of me) and the only variable factor was that they shot it at 0830??? with fog and rain the day before....I can't be made to believe that that is fair...

If we were watching the NBA Finals (because these big matches are our championship games), and the lights went out on one side of the court making it very difficult for shooters to hit shots there, the game would be stopped........because it is no longer an equal competition IMHO.

Jesse's right...there's no arguing that hitting the 500 yard target is just too awesome...but when one shooter gets to just put his cross-hair on it and squeeze while another has to hunt for it in the shadows of a berm and then compensate for 30mph wind, that just isn't right.

Shooting a 1-2 moa target at 100 yards is JUST AS HARD if not HARDER than shooting a 4MOA target at 400...you still have to showcase marksmanship ability. (again, in my very humble opinion).

[D.Hayden]

Every sport has these issues.. and it affects everyone.. so why whine about it?

Can you see Jack Nicholas complaining: "But Watson didn't have wind in his face!" - lol

[Chuck Anderson]

Shooting a 1-2 moa target at 100 yards is JUST AS HARD if not HARDER than shooting a 4MOA target at 400...you still have to showcase marksmanship ability. (again, in my very humble opinion).

It's really not. A one inch target will be next to impossible for an iron shooter to find. But an optic shooter will have a relatively easy shot at it. A 4 MOA target will be relatively easy target but the shooter has to factor in wind and trajectory. Skills that can't be tested at 100 yards regardless of target size.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Every sport has these issues.. and it affects everyone.. so why whine about it?

Can you see Jack Nicholas complaining: "But Watson didn't have wind in his face!" - lol

Why does asking questions about how to improve our sport always get called whining? I do my whining and crying in my beer that night after I shot the match. This is supposed to be civilized discussion.

Respectfully Yours,

The Mayor

[Jesse Tischauser]

Shooting a 1-2 moa target at 100 yards is JUST AS HARD if not HARDER than shooting a 4MOA target at 400...you still have to showcase marksmanship ability. (again, in my very humble opinion).

It's really not. A one inch target will be next to impossible for an iron shooter to find. But an optic shooter will have a relatively easy shot at it. A 4 MOA target will be relatively easy target but the shooter has to factor in wind and trajectory. Skills that can't be tested at 100 yards regardless of target size.

Off topic completely here but we shoot those MGM autopoppers or skinnies at our local matches every month. It's just as hard if not harder for myself and the newbies to hit them at 75-100 as it is to hit the 10" wide by 15" tall MGM flash target at 300.

I've timed it in practice too. It takes about 2.5- 3 seconds to drop prone and get a first round hit. Neither is a gimme under the clock. I would have better success with flash targets at 200-300 than I would with auto poppers at 50-100 all day long.

[Bryan 45]

Shit happens, and that can be the most entertaining part of our sport. I don't know how you approach a match, but no matter who I am shooting against, I am always competing against myself the hardest. I want to do my best, I want to perform to the highest level I can, to raise to the challenge and do better than I did before. How I end up in the standings, be it first or last is of much less importance than how I performed compared to how I perceive I could have performed. I don't care if the stage was harder to shoot when I shot it or easier, I care about how well I shoot the stage when the buzzer goes off. 3 gun is not fair, very little if anything in life is fair, we do what we can to make it fun and drink beer afterwards.

It all comes down to this, guys. We shoot for different reasons. Some of us shoot for the personal challenge, some shoot to win.

Personally, I haven't shot a match yet that was too hard. I've taken plenty of mikes, FTEs, proceedurals, gotten bug bites, blisters, and rashes in the process of having a great time shooting though.

Edit to add- I completely understand both sides of it. I don't see any of this as whining, just a genuine attempt at trying to make the sport better.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Bryan 45

[D.Hayden]

Every sport has these issues.. and it affects everyone.. so why whine about it?

Can you see Jack Nicholas complaining: "But Watson didn't have wind in his face!" - lol

Why does asking questions about how to improve our sport always get called whining? I do my whining and crying in my beer that night after I shot the match. This is supposed to be civilized discussion.

Respectfully Yours,

The Mayor

That's not a jab at you.. it's just "why worry about it?"

It's an outdoor sport, there will be variables, there will always be variables.. sometimes for you, sometimes against you

One time at Ironman.. we were shooting Stage 11.. almost everyone got through it.. then Bagakis shot.. it poured buckets on him.. I'm sure it cost him some serious points

I think the same match.. TMC was shooting stage 6 ,, shooting under a car? A whirlwind came up.. you could no longer see TMC or the RO.. and no way could he shoot at anything.. and it was a small bay

But it's not just wind or rain, all kinds of factors.. you can't mitigate them all

For me the most fun stages are the 200-400 yard stages.. I wouldn't travel to short matches. Weather is just a part of it

ETA - I have heard the occasional match rumor where squads were moved around.. so they wouldn't be affected by odd weather.. that is another thing entirely..

Edited December 16, 2011 by D.Hayden

[Chuck Anderson]

Shooting a 1-2 moa target at 100 yards is JUST AS HARD if not HARDER than shooting a 4MOA target at 400...you still have to showcase marksmanship ability. (again, in my very humble opinion).

It's really not. A one inch target will be next to impossible for an iron shooter to find. But an optic shooter will have a relatively easy shot at it. A 4 MOA target will be relatively easy target but the shooter has to factor in wind and trajectory. Skills that can't be tested at 100 yards regardless of target size.

Off topic completely here but we shoot those MGM autopoppers or skinnies at our local matches every month. It's just as hard if not harder for myself and the newbies to hit them at 75-100 as it is to hit the 10" wide by 15" tall MGM flash target at 300.

I've timed it in practice too. It takes about 2.5- 3 seconds to drop prone and get a first round hit. Neither is a gimme under the clock. I would have better success with flash targets at 200-300 than I would with auto poppers at 50-100 all day long.

Not saying they aren't difficult shots. I am saying they don't test fundamental skills like trajectory and wind compensation. Seems like I keep repeating that part. How does a 100 yard target yet those things?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Shooting a 1-2 moa target at 100 yards is JUST AS HARD if not HARDER than shooting a 4MOA target at 400...you still have to showcase marksmanship ability. (again, in my very humble opinion).

It's really not. A one inch target will be next to impossible for an iron shooter to find. But an optic shooter will have a relatively easy shot at it. A 4 MOA target will be relatively easy target but the shooter has to factor in wind and trajectory. Skills that can't be tested at 100 yards regardless of target size.

Off topic completely here but we shoot those MGM autopoppers or skinnies at our local matches every month. It's just as hard if not harder for myself and the newbies to hit them at 75-100 as it is to hit the 10" wide by 15" tall MGM flash target at 300.

I've timed it in practice too. It takes about 2.5- 3 seconds to drop prone and get a first round hit. Neither is a gimme under the clock. I would have better success with flash targets at 200-300 than I would with auto poppers at 50-100 all day long.

Not saying they aren't difficult shots. I am saying they don't test fundamental skills like trajectory and wind compensation. Seems like I keep repeating that part. How does a 100 yard target yet those things?

I agree 100%. They pose different types of challenges all together which is what makes them fun.

[GorillaTactical]

to clarify that comment, im simply suggesting that closer targets can pose a challenge just as much as far can....even if they don't challenge knowledge of trajectory.

Edited December 16, 2011 by GorillaTactical

[Jesse Tischauser]

Every sport has these issues.. and it affects everyone.. so why whine about it?

Can you see Jack Nicholas complaining: "But Watson didn't have wind in his face!" - lol

Why does asking questions about how to improve our sport always get called whining? I do my whining and crying in my beer that night after I shot the match. This is supposed to be civilized discussion.

Respectfully Yours,

The Mayor

That's not a jab at you.. it's just "why worry about it?"

It's an outdoor sport, there will be variables, there will always be variables.. sometimes for you, sometimes against you

One time at Ironman.. we were shooting Stage 11.. almost everyone got through it.. then Bagakis shot.. it poured buckets on him.. I'm sure it cost him some serious points

I think the same match.. TMC was shooting stage 6 ,, shooting under a car? A whirlwind came up.. you could no longer see TMC or the RO.. and no way could he shoot at anything.. and it was a small bay

But it's not just wind or rain, all kinds of factors.. you can't mitigate them all

For me the most fun stages are the 200-400 yard stages.. I wouldn't travel to short matches. Weather is just a part of it

ETA - I have heard the occasional match rumor where squads were moved around.. so they wouldn't be affected by odd weather.. that is another thing entirely..

Our squad including the guy that took second place in TO shot stage 8 in pouring rain at the recent FB3G. None of our squad finished higher than 60% or so. It could have been the difference between winning and losing for the 2nd place guy. That evening we found out that the MD had called a cease fire due to the rain while we were shooting. Our RO's never got the message. Shituff happens the guy that got 2nd place never complained nor did anyone on our squad but it sure would have been nice to see the match winner and 2nd place shooter go heads up in the same match conditions. Same goes for Mr. Andersen. He shot that same match in one day in the sun a few days prior to the actual match. He eventually won by 6 match points or so. Wouldn't it have been a better competition if the winner and runner up shot the stages together? I'm not slighting anyone here but there are disparities. We don't get to choose when we shoot each stage. Its luck of the draw. I'm sure Mr. Andersen would have rather shot in two days instead of rushing through 9 stages in one day.

One of the top Open division shooters recently told me that he makes sure to shoot with the other top guys in his division rather than squadding up with his buddies from TO simply because he wants to make sure the top guys shoot the same match. He definitely didn't want to win because he got lucky on the stage assignments. It sounded like a great idea and a very noble move.

Other than the Texas stadium idea which doubds awesome the best suggestion sounds like having multiple long range stages spread out over the match, heck I am no MD which is why I keep asking these dumb questions but that would also seem to make the match flow more smoothly. You could shoot the stages in those awesome zones like IPSC does or like Larry did at FNH.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[JMIS]

So we all like shooting the long range stage in 3 gun right? Well until your squad has to shoot it in the morning fog, the afternoon rain, the day that had 50 mph winds. It seems like every match has a half day or more worth of shooting that obviously is a disadvantage for those shooters that have to shoot the long stuff on those days. So why do we do it?

Why don't we just shoot to 100 or 150 yards rather than 300 or 350? Wind, rain, and other weather conditions are much less of a factor at closer distances. Would Shooting more targets/stages at closer long range targets detract from the fun? Is it even possible to eliminate or even reduce mother natures impact on the outcome of the match?

I agree. I shot the 3man / 3gun at York PA last week. I shot the long stage with direct sun and grey steel. I could not see. I walked past the stage later after the sun moved... what a difference.

And that was only 175yds

[RiggerJJ]

How do we make the match the same for every shooter?

Simple answer?

sorry but...you can't...

jj

How do we make the match the more similar for every shooter?

As long as you don't add/remove targets or props during, the "match" IS similar for each shooter...

And until you return "that" tagline back to your sig block, I say we can't call you the mayor and you can't sign off as "The Mayor"

jj

[Jesse Tischauser]

As long as you don't add/remove targets or props during, the "match" IS similar for each shooter...

And until you return "that" tagline back to your sig block, I say we can't call you the mayor and you can't sign off as "The Mayor"

jj

I wasnt the one that removed anything if you get my drift.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

As long as you don't add/remove targets or props during, the "match" IS similar for each shooter...

And until you return "that" tagline back to your sig block, I say we can't call you the mayor and you can't sign off as "The Mayor"

jj

I wasnt the one that removed anything if you get my drift.

Ahhh, Censorship - gotta love it!!

[Chuck Anderson]

Same goes for Mr. Andersen. He shot that same match in one day in the sun a few days prior to the actual match. He eventually won by 6 match points or so. Wouldn't it have been a better competition if the winner and runner up shot the stages together? I'm not slighting anyone here but there are disparities. We don't get to choose when we shoot each stage. Its luck of the draw. I'm sure Mr. Andersen would have rather shot in two days instead of rushing through 9 stages in one day.

Figured you'd bring that up. Yes, I would have preferred to shoot the match in 2 days, with some other Open shooters. Instead I shot first on at least 6 of the 11 stages (yep, had to shoot two of them twice because I went first and they had issues with the stages.) Probably would have been to my benefit to see someone shoot 9 first instead of just shooting from where someone else said to shoot from, not realizing there was no way to clear the edge of the cliff. Took about 30 seconds to get around that little snafu. Would have rather shot Stage 8 with enough ammo to actually have three full mags instead of having to download since when I shot it the first time I found out the right hand Larue was behind a rise and couldnt' be shot from the right hadn position without a lot of luck instead of skill. Just like with every other three gun match I shot I took my chances, shot when I was scheduled and lucked out. Could have very easily gone the other way shooting in rain and wind. I've certainly ended up on the short end of the stick enough times to know what it looks like. It's part of the sport. There is no way to make everything even for everyone.

Oh, and really, a few days prior to the match? Not quite sure how factual that is. I shot it Thursday from sun up to sun down. Pretty sure you guys shot Friday right?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Figured you'd bring that up. Yes, I would have preferred to shoot the match in 2 days, with some other Open shooters. Instead I shot first on at least 6 of the 11 stages (yep, had to shoot two of them twice because I went first and they had issues with the stages.) Probably would have been to my benefit to see someone shoot 9 first instead of just shooting from where someone else said to shoot from, not realizing there was no way to clear the edge of the cliff. Took about 30 seconds to get around that little snafu. Would have rather shot Stage 8 with enough ammo to actually have three full mags instead of having to download since when I shot it the first time I found out the right hand Larue was behind a rise and couldnt' be shot from the right hadn position without a lot of luck instead of skill. Just like with every other three gun match I shot I took my chances, shot when I was scheduled and lucked out. Could have very easily gone the other way shooting in rain and wind. I've certainly ended up on the short end of the stick enough times to know what it looks like. It's part of the sport. There is no way to make everything even for everyone.

Oh, and really, a few days prior to the match? Not quite sure how factual that is. I shot it Thursday from sun up to sun down. Pretty sure you guys shot Friday right?

I had no idea when you and Phil shot the match. I also made sure to mention that you probably woudl have rather shot at the normal pace in two days as one day RO shoots are never fun.

My point was that there was a huge difference between the conditions for you and the 2nd place finisher. We will never know which day or format of shooting would have helped or hurt either of you. What we do know is that the difference COULD have made a difference in the match outcome. Same thing for TO.

There is no way to make everything even for everyone.

I think we established this about 10 posts ago but why can't we try to make it more similar, not fair or even but similar. Rocky Mountain 3 Gun wouldn't let us shoot a cactus or a few branches so that the target presentation would be similar for everyone. I thought it was annoying at the time but in retrospect it was pretty freakin' brilliant.

I am enjoying our banter so much that I think i am going to run for Area 4 Director so we can work together to come up with ways to fix USPSA 3 gun together!

[JRW]

So I wanted to take up Jesse's challenge and put some noodle to this. Would it be possible to run 150 shooters (2011 FB3G size) through a LR rifle stage in one day. If you assume a 180 second par time with 30 seconds on either side to make ready/clear each shooter, 150 shooters takes 10 hours. You double that for a match like the TX multigun (300) shooters, and you are up to 20 hours. That assumes every shooter is on time, every shooter is ready, gun in hand when it is their turn to shoot. You would need to have 3.5+ times the RO staff so you could have rotating ROs by shooter. For example, RO1 would follow ShooterA, once finished RO2 would start ShooterB while RO1 cleared and scored ShooterA. RO1 would then prep ShooterC and so on... Even with the extra staff, the toll on the ROs would be significant. Reducing the Par time to 120 seconds only saves you a couple hours making it barely doable.

Another option might be to only run the long range stage from 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM. This would provide a 5 hour window of relatively consistent lighting, eliminate most early fog and possibly provide a bit more consistency in weather conditions. You would still not get all shooters through the stage in single day, thus introducing weather back into the mix. You would also need to probably run it as an all steel stage since you cannot afford any scoring/taping time. How you accomplish this would require a level of precision not typically seen in major matches. All stages would need to run at or ahead of schedule. You would probably need to set and enforce strict penalties for not being on time for a stage or your turn to shoot. Given a squad would have a narrow window to shoot the LR stage, there might even be an automatic Stage DQ if the shooter is not ready within 30 seconds of their start time.

If we don't want to go this draconian, we could also agree in advance under what conditions the stage would be thrown out. So if there were high enough winds on a particular day, the stage is gone. The match director could set forth certain criteria for particular stages or circumstances that when met eliminate the stage from the scores. Shooters would still have the option to run the stage, but not for score. If memory serves, we experienced the extreme version of this at Blue Ridge where the entire match was halted.

Now there was an interesting comment made earlier about an open shooter specifically squading with the other top shooters in his division to minimize variables throughout the match. Match staff could take this a step further and enforce/offer flighted squading. This would create squading based on past performance. Taken to the logical conclusion we could find ourselves shooting classifiers, which was discussed at length after RM3G two years ago (not favorably). If it was made voluntary, then the match staff has the issue of determining how to build these divisional super squads. How do you pick who makes the cut and does not? You also have to gauge the impact to the sport by not enabling the Tac Ops shooter to see how irons or open can be run by a top shooter, or never allowing a new shooter to get the experience and knowledge by following Daniel Horner for an entire match.

Thoughts?