airline broke into my gun bag

[ErikW]

Returning from A2DC I checked in at Phoenix's America West counter and declared my unloaded firearm in baggage to be checked. The clerk insisted I had to put the tag in the pistol case. (In reality, it need only be in the bag holding the case.) After I locked it all up, she picked up the phone and said, "I have a firearm in a green bag." I closed my eyes, smacked my forehead, and shook my head. She didn't put it on the conveyor; she walked it back to the baggage handling area, I presume... maybe it was a baggage security area.

Hours later, my Shooter's Connection bag dropped onto America West's carousel at SFO with one of my two locks gone, the other lock scarred by a cutter and relocated but functional, two new locks in place, and new keys attached. Inside one of the pockets was a portion of a note saying they were following FAA security regulations.

If you've ever been burglarized, you know exactly how I felt.

I immediately took it to the airline's baggage counter to open it in the presence of an airline employee. I broke off the one lock that wouldn't open and inspected the contents. One of the two sliding handles of my hard plastic gun case was gone, but my original lock was intact. My Open gun was intact, but someone had moved the declaration tag from behind the foam to with the gun in between the foam. My magazines were intact, my pepper spray was there, my knife was there, everything seemed OK besides the damaged case.

I told the lady at the baggage counter I wanted to file a claim for the damage. She wouldn't give me a claim form and tried to blame it on the FAA, that they had to do this to make sure there wasn't a bomb in there. (Uh huh, like somebody is gonna sign off a firearm declaration and put an explosive device in the bag instead, sure.) She insisted I call the number left in my bag by the person(s) who B&E'd it.

Obviously, I'm going to make them buy me a new pistol case. And maybe new locks. But I'm wondering what I can do to put the fear of god (or fear of the feds) into them to prevent this in the future. I'm thinking of sealing my pistol case with some official-looking text saying, "This case is sealed by order of the FAA. Anyone who opens this case is in violation of the Gun Owners Protection Act of 1986 and is punishable by ten years in a federal pentitentiary and the FBI will burn your house down and kill your children by order of the Attorney General, amen."

That, or I'm not going to declare guns to the airlines. I'm going to look into making my own CYA declaration to meet the letter of the law (er, regulations) and use that without actually telling the airline in person.

And I'm thinking of reverting to my original operational plan of carrying the gun the generic Samsonite luggage, not in the Shooters Connection range bag.

[Chris]

Thats ed up.  Who was the agent at the America West counter?  I checked in my bags and the lady who inspected my pistol case talked to me for 15 minutes about how great guns are and how everyone should own one.

None of our bags got touched and we checked in at 8pm.  The lady did however walk my suitcase in back and said she put it in a 'secure area'.  When I asked what she was doing, she said all luggage with firearms gets put in the secure area untill its loaded on the plane.

BTW, what is the name of the FFL you go through in SF?  Someone said they do transfers for $50?

[EricW]

Erik,

I'm pretty certain that is a procedural violation, if not flat out illegal.  If the airline has a question about the bag, they are supposed to page you and have *you* open it.  Breaking and entering is a big no no.  Furthermore, marking or denoting a bag to indicate that it contains firearms is a Federal no-no. (I'm certain about that one.)

I've boycotted America Worst for years because they are so stunningly incompetent.  This only reinforces that fact.  

You really should be contacting the FAA and DOT about this.  You'll need to go to the FAA website and find your regional office.  (I *think* the correct office for PHX is in Seattle.)  I raised holy hell with the FAA right after 9/11 because PHX wasn't executing the security procedures properly.  I got a VERY prompt response from the FAA.  I can almost guarantee that if you present this as a case of an airline induced unsecured weapon (locks with attached keys is NOT secure), you'll get prompt action as well.  You've really got to wonder if somebody was planning on stealing it but ran out of time or privacy and came up with this lame ass gambit.

Don't let it go.  Take the time to see it through.  Cops and Feds probably check guns all the time, and they damn sure won't put up with this if they know it's going on.

E

[ErikW]

Been doing some web searching and can't find relevant parts of Volkmer-McClure Gun Owners Protection act or other parts of fed law to threaten the airline employees. But you are right, EricW, they violated a part of the FAA regs that says only the passenger has the key or combination. I figured there was some new post-9/11 reg that let them inspect declared guns, but there isn't. In fact, it seems they can only screen checked baggage for explosives or incendiaries.

I'm only out about $25. I just want Amerika Worst to reimburse that and stop doing this shjt. I assume non-compliance with the CFR subjects the corporation to fines, and shjt would roll downhill and the employee would be subject to discipline. If they could just issue a memo to their counterpersons and supervisors clarifying their policies and FAA regs, I'd be happy. I'd be ecstatic if they fired whoever B&E'd my bag, together with whoever ordered it or approved it.

It's really weird that Chris had his bag taken for special dispensation like mine, but it wasn't B&E'd.

Chris, I had a blonde at counter #26 or so. I'll message you about the FFL.

[EricW]

Erik,

Start Here at the Flight Standards District Office for PHX:

http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/arizona/phoenix.htm

If you don't get satisfaction, got to the DOT.  The DOT has somewhat of a watchdog role over the FAA.  (I doubt that will be necessary.)  FWIW, the FAA has not proved to be rabidly anti-gun and has not jumped on the "security" bandwagon to persecute travelling gun-owners as part of the post 9/11 hype.  (As I feared they might)  It's not about the money here.  It's a safety and procedural issue.  9/11 should not be used by and airline as a carte-blanche to do anything they feel like in the name of "safety."  The FAA does appear to be actively and vigorously pursuing airlines over legitimate security procedure violations, of which this surely is one.  

Check this out:

http://www2.faa.gov/index.cfm/apa/1062?id=1606

It would be facinating to have America West explain how having baggage monkeys with access to firearms on the ramp enhances aviation safety.

I didn't have to send in any paperwork or an affadavit for my report.  I spent maybe half an hour on the phone with the FAA.  You *might* be required to do more, I don't know.  I hope you feel it's worth your time.

E

[BrianH]

....I like you're idea about not declaring anymore.....

[shred]

Same thing happened to me too. America West as well. I told the lady I had firearms to check, she X-ed out the bag tag and put a green label in it. (none of this happened on the way _in_ to PHX) I said "You're not allowed to mark gun bags" and she said "I'm not, this is for the bomb-X-ray thing". When I got home the outside lock was gone and there were 2 new locks in AmW envelopes that were printed with (roughly) "Sorry, here's a new lock, the FAA made us do it". Wierd thing was the gun case was still locked up tight, and the other bag with leftover ammo in it wasn't touched.

I'll ask one guy I know that flew Southwest.

[Nik Habicht]

Pure speculation on my part:  Since they now swab select items of hand luggage/personal items from your pockets at security and analyze the swab, is it possible that they swab luggage or have it sniffed by a dog?  And is it further possible that in the case of a declared gun in the bag ---- that they are confirming the hit on the swab or sniff by looking through/rifling through the bag, instead of calling say the bomb squad for inspection/disposal?  I'm not trying to suggest that this is o.k., just wondering if this may be a new reality that we haven't heard about?

[BSeevers]

I have a related weird story. I am flying home from Infinity Open and am trying to get on a earlier flight as standby. I declare my gun and the clerk says she wants to see it because its her first gun check and exciting. Well I take the gun out and show it clear by request. Security guy also comes over and wants to see it without me racking slide and sticks his finger in magwell. He knows a lot about firearms huh.

Well when you fly standby there is a special procedure. You go over to the scanners with your luggage(gun in it!) and they scan and do the swab test including my hands! I had just handled my gun! I was standing there with pictures of being held in airport jail for hours. Well she put it in ionizer and it showed negative. They didn't even scan the luggage and threw it on belt. I feel so secure.

There were 57 people on standby but I was picked 8th out of 12 to go. Was it the gun or my silver skymiles status?

[down0]

I work for the FAA (and I'm here to help ).  The regional office is in LA.  Call FSDO in PHX first.  If you have no luck there, call the aviation consumer hotline ( I don't know the number, but I'm sure it's at dot.gov or faa.gov.  America West is a horrible airline, run by people matched only by the FAA in their incompetence.  If you have no luck, let me know, and I will get you the phone number of the Regional Administrator.

[Patrick Sweeney]

down0, are you willing to be the go-to guy for our flying questions?

[Storm]

Wow! I didn't have any problems with Am West this weekend. But, I didn't fly home out of PHX until yesterday morning.

Wonder if it just happened to people that left on Sunday?

[ErikW]

Here's the deal according to the Amerika Worst baggage service rep at SFO.

Their PHX terminal has their x-ray behind the counter. This means they can't have you present if they need to do a secondary search. (Their stated policy is they will only search in your presence.) This means they have to break into it. This means they are getting a lot of damage claims from people who fly out of PHX and other airports where their x-ray is behind the counter.

No explanation why they felt it necessary to break open a pistol case to look for explosives or incendiaries (the only things they are supposed to look for), especially when the x-ray clearly shows a pistol.

She concurred they were violating FAA regs by replacing the locks and having the keys with them on bags containing guns.

I declined her offer of a coupon, as I won't be flying an airline that breaks into my bags and handles my gun. I requested monetary reimbursement; they're working on it.

I'll be writing a nastygram to snail-mail to their HQ.

Don't fly America West out of Phoenix!

(Edited by Erik Warren at 3:48 pm on Nov. 12, 2002)

[EricW]

Why fly America Worst at all from or to anywhere?  If you're flying on business, you will almost certainly have your schedule screwed up.  If you're flying for pleasure, you'll almost certainly suffer losing precious weekend/vacation time plus suffer unnecessary aggravation.  AW regards customers as just sh*t they have to put up with in order get paid to fly airplanes.  I've never seen a more customer hostile airline.  

AW is one airline that deserves to die .

[shred]

Dang.. I bitched out their customer-service guy at baggage-claims-central and he kept saying "It was the Transportation Security Agency that did it, we would call you if we had to get in..".  He had no good explanation why the envelope said "America West" on it in big letters, and denied that X-ing out the barcodes and adding a big green tag that the check-in person did was firearms related.  He also claimed "regulations changed daily" even on weekends.  Funny, the TSA went home promptly at 5 today when I tried to call them.

The ticket was cheap, but maybe next time I'll suffer Southwest.

[ErikW]

shred, they didn't mark my bar code but they put an AW logo sticker on it. (Actually a single sticker that wraps around both front and back codes.) Someone also hand-wrote "SH" (or "HS" upside-down). Special Handling? Homeland Security? Sieg Heil? The other, unmolested, gun-less bag had no such markings.

Regulations do change frequently, and I'd hate to have to put up with keeping up to date on them. But the latest ones I've read don't say anything about burglarizing luggage.

It seems to me they are taking declared gun baggage and marking them for x-ray, then breaking into them when they see a gun on the x-ray. (FYI, a gun in the bag isn't a reason to search further.) Can they really be that brain-dead?

[EricW]

If the rules change, they have to be publicly disclosed somehow, somewhere.  Furthermore, while the FAA *can* change policies, but they don't have the right to institute procedures in violation of Federal Law, which is exactly what happened in your case.  The airline committed a felony.  Cut and dry.  I've got a good feeling the someone at AW or at least someone in PHX is making the rules up as they go along.  I'm pretty damn sure that breaking into luggage is NOT an FAA approved procedure.  

Think of the liability it opens them up to.  If they did find something illicit in the bag, the passenger could have the charges dismissed because he could easily claim the evidence was planted.  This is exactly why whenever you go through customs anywhere YOU are exected to open your luggage.  That's SOP even in Mexico for crying out loud.  

America West's jive is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.  

E

[down0]

I don't mind trying to answer flying questions.  Just remember, after 20+ years in the FAA all I know is...the only difference between the FAA and the Titanic is, the Titanic had a band....

The FAA Airline complaint line number is 1-800-FAA-SURE.

The DOT (parent department of the FAA) Office of Consumer Affairs number is 202-366-2220.

If anyone experiencing problems flying out of PHX would like the name and address and phone and fax number of the FAA Regional Administrator, messenger me.

[lynn jones]

i erik,

i flew from memphis, tn to the a2dc this year as well.  i had no trouble at all. (i few northwest) i put my shooters connection range bag in a big samsonite luggage suitecase.  my guns were in a locked seperate case in the suitecase. easily opened for inspection.  i would never check my shooting bag seperate, not safe enough.  the samsonite is lockable and i put a strap on the outside.

in other words, the samsonite is cover

one more point.. the airlines are going to start limiting the weight of checked luggage to 50lbs.  surcharging for overage.  that means i have to carry another bag next year.

good luck

lynn jones

(Edited by lynn jones at 11:17 am on Nov. 20, 2002)

[bgary]

I had a similar experience coming home from Area-2 in 2001 (on United)

Checked the bags in Phoenix, waited at the carousel in Seattle.  Dillon bag came out.  Suitcase (with gun) did not.

Waited a while until every bag had gone by, went to the counter.  Told them.  They said "no problem, go home, it'll turn up and we'll deliver it to you."  I said no, I wasn't comfortable with that.  The lost bag has a firearm in it, and I need to have it actively worked.  We went back and forth for about a half hour, with them telling me not to worry about it.  They did do some research on their little computer, and said "hmmm, this can't happen... that's odd."  Apparently it was shown as having been "scanned" onto the plane in Phoenix several minutes *after* the plane left.  Since it never got scanned off the plane in Seattle, that meant it had dropped out of their system, and they had "no idea where it is, because this can't happen."

The next time they told me to go home, I said "My firearm is missing, you have no idea where it is, and I need to file a police report, as at this point I have to believe it has been stolen.  Please give me your name and employee number so I can give them a representative to contact."  At that point, all kinds of supervisors got involved... but, an hour later, I ended up going home.

At that point, the education really started.  I called up the Port of Seattle police to file a report.  They didn't care.  They said "until your bag has been missing for a week, we figure it will turn up.  We have to give the airline a chance to find it."  I told them - you don't understand, there is a *gun* in that bag.  I'd like to get a police report taken, just in case someone does something with *my* gun, during the week that the airline has to find it.  They didn't care.  

Next morning I called the BATF, to ask what I should do.  They asked "are you a dealer?"  No, I'm not.  "Well, if you aren't a dealer, we don't care.  File a police report.

Etc, etc, etc.  Finally called my insurance agent, just to make sure that *someone* had it on record that I reported it missing.

3 days later, got a call from the airline.  They had "found" my bag, and would be delivering it to my home.  I said no, I wanted to inspect it on their premises, so I arranged to go to SeaTac and meet their supervisor.  If anything was amiss, I wanted it caught before I "accepted delivery.  We arranged to meet at the baggage office at 4pm.

About 2:30 I go out the front door of my house, and... trip over my suitcase.  United had dropped it off at my house, with not even a knock on the door.  I was *livid*.

When I opened it up, I found that the suitcase locks (nice, Master padlocks) had been cut off.  Additionally, the padlocks securing the plastic gun case had been cut off.  And clearly, everything had been gone through - magazines were out of place, etc.  Fortunately, everything *was* there.  But I was plenty pissed.

I called up United and talked to the supervisor.  Well, more accurately, I vented at the supervisor.  Told them just how unhappy I was about having my suitcase left, unlocked and unsupervised, on my doorstep with a gun inside.  Jeez.

And then, the icing on the cake.  The story they told me was that "some lady" had taken my suitcase off the carousel by mistake.  As soon as she returned it to the airport, they called me.  Which sounds fine, except for a couple of things.  (1)  I was at the carousel when things started coming out, and it never came out  (2)  If "some lady" did take it home, why did it take her 3 days to figure out it wasn't hers?  (3) and wouldn't the fact that it was padlocked closed, with locks to which she did not have keys, be a clue?  Oh, and (4) what about that whole thing about the suitcase never getting on the plane in Phoenix?

My own theory is that they x-rayed it in Phoenix, saw a gun, pulled it aside for inspection, and it missed the plane. They busted it open, saw that it had a declaration tag, rummaged through everything, and put it back into the system.  Who knows where it was for 3 days, but... Jeez, what a cluster.

Isn't flying fun?!?!?

Bruce

(Edited by bgary at 8:29 pm on Jan. 4, 2003)

[TDean]

OH mY FriCkinG GoD!!

...and to think of all the good folks that are killed in car accidents everyday across this country, yet these folks still walk our earth.

What the hell can we do?  Someone needs to lose their job!!

"isn't flying fun?"  YA!

My recent story is flying out of Spokane on AmeriKa West.  I was cutting it close, but being that SPK is such a small airport I figured 45min would be plenty of time to arrive before my flight.  I get to the agent at about 35min before my flight departed.  As soon as I declare a weapon, they tell me that I was too late and wouldn't be able to make it on that flight!  "our rule is 30min sir....the next flight departs in 7hrs...shall we book you?.."  Needless to say I was very pissed.  I recognized the fact that they changed their attitude when I became a person with a gun in his bag, and very-very verbally let them know about my level of anger (I was really expecting security to intervene).

I then show up 1.5 hours before the next flight.  I declared my gun, filled out the tag and she put the bag behind the counter.  I thought I was good to go until the same bitch I encountered earlier started whispering to my current agent.  Apparently I was breaking FAA rules because my well made ballistic nylon luggage didn't meet the "hard case" requirements.  They again refused to allow me to board my flight!  This after I waited 7hrs!!

I finally made it on the plane only after leaving the airport and buying a $150 sampsonite at a nearby (and overpriced) travel store.  I got back to the ticket counter 40min befor the flight.  I'm sure my blood pressue was over 200!

Isn't flying fun?

[shred]

American once sent my bag with two Glocks in it to Tokyo unattended for 3 days.  Eventually after reporting them stolen and several calls and lots of repetition of "Don't you care you sent unattended guns and ammo to Tokyo?!?", they gave me a $100 voucher, wheee.. but it was better than nothing and it'll come off somebody's budget.

America West needs to be slapped silly.  The outside case does not need to be a hard-shell, only the actual container the gun is in.  Call their customer service folks until you run up $200 on their 800 number if that's what it takes to get some satisfaction.

Misdirected and lost baggage is tremendous.. airlines lose something like 10-20 thousand bags a month.

(Edited by shred at 1:20 pm on Jan. 5, 2003)

[EricW]

I think there's going to be a new market for FFL holders in mailing guns back and forth to matches.  

The current situation is just totally ridiculous.  Breaking into locked bags with guns makes absolutely no sense from a security standpoint.  We've now got unsecured guns floating all over the airport.  You can almost guarantee one of these guns will get loose and they'll just ban the transport of firearms on airlines altogether for non-LEO's.  The problem being created is so obvious, you have to wonder if it's deliberate.

(Edited by EricW at 12:38 pm on Jan. 5, 2003)

[Nik Habicht]

Eric,

I suspect it's unintentional.  I think that the number of folks traveling with a handgun is such a minuscule fraction of the air-travelling population that no one thought of these rules when they were creating the new guidelines.  But you might be right as to the end result if guns turn up missing....

[gm iprod]

I'm with Nik, but it's not unintentional, they are just lousy at their jobs.

They get in and the unions etc will not let you fire their dumb asses.

We courier guns all over New Zealand. We just wrap them in bubblewrap and put in a sturdy cardboard box and zip them off. No extra paper work or RED TAGS or any other . Just make sure that the insurance will cover the value of the guns and go for it.

If they don't know a gun is inside they may just pass it by and actually do the job properly. The minute the numb nuts at the counter gets a chance to show how good at the paperwork they really are, the show us exactly how much a mental midget they really are. Most of the people at the airline check in are to dumb to work at the post office.