RiggerJJ Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So after pondering this for quite a while, I tried H4895 in our 223s and 308 (all ARs) in a quest for a bit more accuracy in both compared to Varget, and possibly come up with an all around powder for 55 to 69gn 223 bullets and 135 - 155 gn 308 bullets. Results were NOT what I would have guessed at all. A bit of background is probably in order; we shoot 3gun with ARs. our 223s have 16 and 18 inch barrels, the 308s 16in. I moly all of our rifle bullets. I don't want to get into a discussion about the evils or the blessings of moly; just suffice to say I will probably not stop molying our AR bullets. Varget (25.0gn) in the 223s with 68gn Hornady jhp gets about 2625/2725fps, 1-1.5moa Varget (45.0gn) in the 308 with 155gn SMKs gets about 2525fps, 1-1.5moa both these loads were developed as the most accurate with Varget for these guns/barrels. here's the fun part; in the 223s the sweet spot load (near the max published load, makes sense because published data is with a 24in barrel), of 4895 increased velocities to 2800/2900fps, and put accuracy UNDER 1 moa. I thought, GREAT! then I got the 308 out... in the 308, 4895 was WAY too hot, even with the lightest published load of 43.0gn. primer flattening and flowing all over the place. didn't even get through all the loads to find a sweet spot, cause I got scared of the overpressure signs on the primers (I stopped at 44.5gn). (Win LRPs) Accuracy wasn't stellar either...about 1.5moa. Velocities started at 2550 with 43.0gn and ended at 2625 with 44.5gn. I even pulled a couple of bullets to check powder loads, and they were correct. WTF??? H4895 is faster on the burn rate chart than Varget. I have tried BL-C2 in the 308s, no problems but Varget was MUCH better accuracy. My theory is these 308s I have want a slower stick powder, so I am thinking I need to try H380 or H4350. (yea, I'm kinda stuck on Hodgdon powders too...) but no load data available for 308??? What I am really perplexed about is the 223s and 308s seem to be opposited in what powder they want, even thou I am using medium weight bullets respectively. The 223s seem to want a faster powder, the 308s seem to want a slower. Each gun/barrel is the same manufacturer. Thoughts and experiences would really be helpful! Thanks! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Not sure what's up with the 4895/.308 problem as it's a suitable powder. You may try R-15 but in .223 I would say it probably wants heavies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Stick with Varget. It seems to work in both... I have not loaded a round of 308 in many years where I didnt use Varget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 Stick with Varget. It seems to work in both... I have not loaded a round of 308 in many years where I didnt use Varget. Kinda my thought too, but you know me, always screwing with things! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 Not sure what's up with the 4895/.308 problem as it's a suitable powder. You may try R-15 but in .223 I would say it probably wants heavies. almost bought some R-15 to play with the same time I got the 4895...great minds... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Dont fix it if it isnt broke... RL-15 is too expensive for me to shoot 3-gun with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Imr 4895 under a 2156 sierra in my bolt gun. And 8208 under a 69smk in 223. I'm thinking about playing with a jug of 844 I think it is. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Dont fix it if it isnt broke... RL-15 is too expensive for me to shoot 3-gun with. Where or what kind of quantities ? Powder Valley shows only 45c difference per pound (comparing 5lb to 8lb). Is Varget much cheaper elsewhere? Edited November 15, 2011 by DWFAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Have you played around with IMR 4895? I use it for both .223 55gr to 69gr MK and .308 168gr MK with good results. If you do try if you can share your results please. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchibb Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I agree with the Varget comment, I've great luck with Varget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 41-42g of 4895 is/ was the standard go to load for M1A's and 168g bullets for more years than i know. Thats what is/ was loaded in M852. H4350 would be too slow for .308. If you oversize your brass you can get primer flow issues with start loads. Primer flow in the the FP hole can be an issue if its over size with light loads too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) 41-42g of 4895 is/ was the standard go to load for M1A's and 168g bullets for more years than i know. Thats what is/ was loaded in M852. H4350 would be too slow for .308. If you oversize your brass you can get primer flow issues with start loads. Primer flow in the the FP hole can be an issue if its over size with light loads too. Not sure what you mean by "oversize"??? Splain please??? I run my brass thru a Dillon full length die and trim it to length on each reloading, pretty much have to when loading for an AR-10. Like I said in my OP, it appears to me anyway that this particular AR-10 wants/likes slower powders. (1/11 twist 16 inch barrel) My Varget load, although it seems to be right in the middle of the load chart, is flattening primers. Velocity is less than stellar at about 2500-2525 with 155gn SMKs. I tried 135 SMKs and couldn't get them to the sweet spot without overpressure. 168 SMKs were fine, but again slow (rainbow trajectory) in the middle load range with Varget. Going to a faster powder (H4895) seemed to show overpressure signs right at beginning loads, hence my thought of trying powders slower than Varget... I would love to find a load that would work with 135 SMKs for flatter trajectories, (again, for 3 gun distances) but (with Varget anyway) this barrel doens't like them. so, I would like to know if anyone has played with powders slower than Varget, the loads ranges, etc so I will have at least a starting point. Would like to stay with 155 SMKs for now too... thanks! jj Edited November 27, 2011 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 JJ.......I think I may have a good solution for you although its not a slow powder as you suggest you want. Hodgden Benchmark - I use it for 223 under 52 grain bullets all the way to 77gr with great velocity out of my 16" and 17" barrel. I also use it in my LaRue OBR for 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and 155gr. Hornady AMAX's. Velocity with the 155's out of my 18" is 2705fps. I'm working on a 155 SMK and Berger load to use in sniper matches. I get 2840fps with 69SMK's out of my 16" barrel. I have yet to load anything and discover pressure. I just bumped up my charge with my 69 SMK's to 2 grains over book without issue and obtaining excellent velocity. Benchmark is a Hodgden Extreme powder and is a fine extruded powder that meters awesome. My loads for 223 are: 25.7 grains under a 55gr. Hornady FMJBT loaded to 2.220" using CCI SR primers for 3050fps out of my LaRue 16" barrel 24.6 grains under a 69gr. Sierra MK loaded to 2.240" using a CCI SR primer for 2840fps out of my LaRue 16" barrel My loads for 308 are: 46.4 grains under a Nosler 125gr. Ballistic tip to 2.720" using a CCI LR primer for 2800fps out of my LaRue 18" OBR barrel 44.6 grains under a Hornady 155gr. AMAX to 2.800" using a CCI LR primer for 2705fps out of my Larue 18" OBR barrel All of the loads mentioned pretty much fill their respective cases and are slightly compressed. Accuracy is beyond excellent for these loads. I have not shot a bad load using Benchmark. Benchmark does not work very well in 20" barreled rifle gas systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I will give Benchmark a try, but like I said, I am thinking this barrel wants a slower powder than Varget, Benchmark is faster than 4895 which is faster than Varget. I did find a load range for 4350 so will give that a go as well...its slower than Varget. Thanks Todd! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 JJ.....don't get too wrapped up in burn rates since the burn rate is so relative to many other factors. 4895 is a weird powder. It is designed to produce decent velocity at lower pressures. Thats why it is so popular for the Garand and M1A shooters. Burn rate charts are just a guide. Burn rates cannot be measured precisely in absolute or even relative terms when comparing one powder with others.Rates can and will vary from production lot to production lot and even from year to year as formulas change ever slightly. Very slight changes can change a powder's position on the chart. Other factors affect burn rate as well. For example, one powder may burn at a different rate in a 308 case than it does in a 243 case even though they have the same approximate powder volume. Hence the burn rate of Benchmark may be very different when going from a 223 case to a 308 case or vice versa. When I started loading Benchmark several years ago, there was no data for heavy .223 bullets or heavy 308 bullets. I had to experiment and work up slowly. The fruits of that labor paid off for me. Basically, there is not hard and fast rule on powder burn rates. The only thing that is for sure, are results of loads fired from your gun. I've always just used burn rates as a quasi guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 roger that! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acekc Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) It looks like Hodgdon's recc's for H4895 are on the high side at least relative to Sierra's data. This requires a little bit of extrapolation but follow me: Hodgdon lists a range of 43gr to 46gr for H4895 and 155gr bullets. They also list IMR 4895 at 43.5gr to 47.5gr compressed. I know these powders are not interchangeable, but they're in the same ballpark. I'm including the IMR 4895 because... Sierra's manual doesn't list H4895 for 155gr bullets. They do however list IMR 4895, with a range of 39.8gr to 43.7gr. If one goes by the trends in the Hodgdon data, Sierra's H4895 numbers would probably be at least similar to their IMR 4895 numbers. That would put 43gr in the neighborhood of a max load according to Sierra. If you really want to use H4895 I would suggest starting with a 38-39gr charge and working up to your desired velocity while paying attention to pressure signs. I know that usually powder manufacturers recommend that you not go below their minimum loads, but H4895 is somewhat special in this regard. Hodgdon themselves recommends it for reduced power rifle loads and says you can take the max charge out of their data and multiply it by 0.6 to get a reduced weight starting charge. I don't have a high enough post count to post links, but google "h4895 reduced rifle loads" and a PDF from Hodgdon is the top hit. Chuck Hawks has an article discussing this as well. Google "h4895 versatile" and it's the top hit. EDIT: FYI, the Sierra manual shows 2500fps for the starting IMR 4895 charge and 2800fps for the max. That's out of a 26" barrel. OAL for the 155gr is 2.775". Edited November 28, 2011 by acekc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 41-42g of 4895 is/ was the standard go to load for M1A's and 168g bullets for more years than i know. Thats what is/ was loaded in M852. H4350 would be too slow for .308. If you oversize your brass you can get primer flow issues with start loads. Primer flow in the the FP hole can be an issue if its over size with light loads too. Not sure what you mean by "oversize"??? Splain please??? I run my brass thru a Dillon full length die and trim it to length on each reloading, pretty much have to when loading for an AR-10. Like I said in my OP, it appears to me anyway that this particular AR-10 wants/likes slower powders. (1/11 twist 16 inch barrel) My Varget load, although it seems to be right in the middle of the load chart, is flattening primers. Velocity is less than stellar at about 2500-2525 with 155gn SMKs. I tried 135 SMKs and couldn't get them to the sweet spot without overpressure. 168 SMKs were fine, but again slow (rainbow trajectory) in the middle load range with Varget. Going to a faster powder (H4895) seemed to show overpressure signs right at beginning loads, hence my thought of trying powders slower than Varget... I would love to find a load that would work with 135 SMKs for flatter trajectories, (again, for 3 gun distances) but (with Varget anyway) this barrel doens't like them. so, I would like to know if anyone has played with powders slower than Varget, the loads ranges, etc so I will have at least a starting point. Would like to stay with 155 SMKs for now too... thanks! jj you are trying to run slower powder in a .308 "GAS GUN"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 It looks like Hodgdon's recc's for H4895 are on the high side at least relative to Sierra's data. This requires a little bit of extrapolation but follow me: Hodgdon lists a range of 43gr to 46gr for H4895 and 155gr bullets. They also list IMR 4895 at 43.5gr to 47.5gr compressed. I know these powders are not interchangeable, but they're in the same ballpark. I'm including the IMR 4895 because... Sierra's manual doesn't list H4895 for 155gr bullets. They do however list IMR 4895, with a range of 39.8gr to 43.7gr. If one goes by the trends in the Hodgdon data, Sierra's H4895 numbers would probably be at least similar to their IMR 4895 numbers. That would put 43gr in the neighborhood of a max load according to Sierra. If you really want to use H4895 I would suggest starting with a 38-39gr charge and working up to your desired velocity while paying attention to pressure signs. I know that usually powder manufacturers recommend that you not go below their minimum loads, but H4895 is somewhat special in this regard. Hodgdon themselves recommends it for reduced power rifle loads and says you can take the max charge out of their data and multiply it by 0.6 to get a reduced weight starting charge. I don't have a high enough post count to post links, but google "h4895 reduced rifle loads" and a PDF from Hodgdon is the top hit. Chuck Hawks has an article discussing this as well. Google "h4895 versatile" and it's the top hit. EDIT: FYI, the Sierra manual shows 2500fps for the starting IMR 4895 charge and 2800fps for the max. That's out of a 26" barrel. OAL for the 155gr is 2.775". Interesting observations! good catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 41-42g of 4895 is/ was the standard go to load for M1A's and 168g bullets for more years than i know. Thats what is/ was loaded in M852. H4350 would be too slow for .308. If you oversize your brass you can get primer flow issues with start loads. Primer flow in the the FP hole can be an issue if its over size with light loads too. Not sure what you mean by "oversize"??? Splain please??? I run my brass thru a Dillon full length die and trim it to length on each reloading, pretty much have to when loading for an AR-10. Like I said in my OP, it appears to me anyway that this particular AR-10 wants/likes slower powders. (1/11 twist 16 inch barrel) My Varget load, although it seems to be right in the middle of the load chart, is flattening primers. Velocity is less than stellar at about 2500-2525 with 155gn SMKs. I tried 135 SMKs and couldn't get them to the sweet spot without overpressure. 168 SMKs were fine, but again slow (rainbow trajectory) in the middle load range with Varget. Going to a faster powder (H4895) seemed to show overpressure signs right at beginning loads, hence my thought of trying powders slower than Varget... I would love to find a load that would work with 135 SMKs for flatter trajectories, (again, for 3 gun distances) but (with Varget anyway) this barrel doens't like them. so, I would like to know if anyone has played with powders slower than Varget, the loads ranges, etc so I will have at least a starting point. Would like to stay with 155 SMKs for now too... thanks! jj you are trying to run slower powder in a .308 "GAS GUN"? not sure what that means... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 41-42g of 4895 is/ was the standard go to load for M1A's and 168g bullets for more years than i know. Thats what is/ was loaded in M852. H4350 would be too slow for .308. If you oversize your brass you can get primer flow issues with start loads. Primer flow in the the FP hole can be an issue if its over size with light loads too. Not sure what you mean by "oversize"??? Splain please??? I run my brass thru a Dillon full length die and trim it to length on each reloading, pretty much have to when loading for an AR-10. Like I said in my OP, it appears to me anyway that this particular AR-10 wants/likes slower powders. (1/11 twist 16 inch barrel) My Varget load, although it seems to be right in the middle of the load chart, is flattening primers. Velocity is less than stellar at about 2500-2525 with 155gn SMKs. I tried 135 SMKs and couldn't get them to the sweet spot without overpressure. 168 SMKs were fine, but again slow (rainbow trajectory) in the middle load range with Varget. Going to a faster powder (H4895) seemed to show overpressure signs right at beginning loads, hence my thought of trying powders slower than Varget... I would love to find a load that would work with 135 SMKs for flatter trajectories, (again, for 3 gun distances) but (with Varget anyway) this barrel doens't like them. so, I would like to know if anyone has played with powders slower than Varget, the loads ranges, etc so I will have at least a starting point. Would like to stay with 155 SMKs for now too... thanks! jj you are trying to run slower powder in a .308 "GAS GUN"? not sure what that means... AR10'S..... generally you really boost port pressure with slow powders in gas operated guns. IE the pressure in the barrel builds over a longer period of time so when the bullet passes the gas port the pressure is still building with slow powder. Basically you end up over gassing the bolt and beating up the gun, brass etc..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 41-42g of 4895 is/ was the standard go to load for M1A's and 168g bullets for more years than i know. Thats what is/ was loaded in M852. H4350 would be too slow for .308. If you oversize your brass you can get primer flow issues with start loads. Primer flow in the the FP hole can be an issue if its over size with light loads too. Not sure what you mean by "oversize"??? Splain please??? I run my brass thru a Dillon full length die and trim it to length on each reloading, pretty much have to when loading for an AR-10. Like I said in my OP, it appears to me anyway that this particular AR-10 wants/likes slower powders. (1/11 twist 16 inch barrel) My Varget load, although it seems to be right in the middle of the load chart, is flattening primers. Velocity is less than stellar at about 2500-2525 with 155gn SMKs. I tried 135 SMKs and couldn't get them to the sweet spot without overpressure. 168 SMKs were fine, but again slow (rainbow trajectory) in the middle load range with Varget. Going to a faster powder (H4895) seemed to show overpressure signs right at beginning loads, hence my thought of trying powders slower than Varget... I would love to find a load that would work with 135 SMKs for flatter trajectories, (again, for 3 gun distances) but (with Varget anyway) this barrel doens't like them. so, I would like to know if anyone has played with powders slower than Varget, the loads ranges, etc so I will have at least a starting point. Would like to stay with 155 SMKs for now too... thanks! jj you are trying to run slower powder in a .308 "GAS GUN"? not sure what that means... AR10'S..... generally you really boost port pressure with slow powders in gas operated guns. IE the pressure in the barrel builds over a longer period of time so when the bullet passes the gas port the pressure is still building with slow powder. Basically you end up over gassing the bolt and beating up the gun, brass etc..... Ahh, understand now... This one has an adjustable gas block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 for safety and $$$ once I found something working with slower stuff I would then shut the gas down to where it won't lock, then gas it up to where it works. Also if you can get away with it a carrier weight may help if it get's to much gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I am using H4895 out of a 20" bolt gun with 155 SMK's and getting 2885 fps. I wouldn't have thought an 18" gas gun would be that far behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmclaine Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Are you loading the H4895 on a Dillon? Did the stick powder give you any issues with the measure? I'll be loading IMR 4895, IMR 4064 and Varget through a S1050 soon to develop loads to be used in a Garand as well as 1903 Springfields. I hear both positive and negative about getting consistent powder drops. How did H4895 work for you as far as consistent weights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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