Fireant Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 what rule would you base it on. Oh yeah if JA is reading no posting on this until later please. Let's say a single stack major shooter has a mag with 9 rounds in it after the buzzer, on an unloaded gun start. What is the call and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 what rule would you base it on. Oh yeah if JA is reading no posting on this until later please. Let's say a single stack major shooter has a mag with 9 rounds in it after the buzzer, on an unloaded gun start. What is the call and why? Welcome to open. D5.9 and 6.2.5.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 It's a bump to Open (or shoot for no score) because: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Appendix D5 Single Stack Division 9. Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal -Major Power Factor - 8 rounds -Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Off the top of my bald head... Inserting a magazine with 9 rounds into a SSTK Major gun is a no-go whether or not the gun was loaded at the start. Appendix D5, Item 9:Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal -Major Power Factor - 8 rounds -Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds At that point they go to Open: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. ========= ETA: They were faster this time! Edited November 7, 2011 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Bump to Open or no score. Appendix D5 and 6.2.5.1. Is this a trick question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Ah, but the interesting thing happens... A Single Stack shooter declares Major, goes to chrono, and is found to be shooting minor. Then that shooter is free to load up to 10 rounds in a mag if he wishes. A Single Stack shooter declares Major, is found to be shooting with 9 rounds in a mag after the start signal. As noted by the above the shooter gets bumped to Open. After the bump to open, then the shooter is free to load as many bullets as he wants in a magazine, change magazine pouch and holster positions, and free to tack on optics or a flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Oh I can see it now...the competitor says "Oops, I meant to declare minor." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Off the top of my bald head... Inserting a magazine with 9 rounds into a SSTK Major gun is a no-go whether or not the gun was loaded at the start. Appendix D5, Item 9:Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal -Major Power Factor - 8 rounds -Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds At that point they go to Open: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. ========= ETA: They were faster this time! Couldn't the argument be made that they did satisfy the declared Division requirements, there is no division for major/minor only a scoring differnce? In SSTK you are allowed to have 10 rounds in a mag if shooting minor so couldn't they be bumped to minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Oh I can see it now...the competitor says "Oops, I meant to declare minor." I started off replying with with a lighthearted: "Then the competitor gets to shoot Open minor." I then remembered going to major match where registration had gotten confused. I'd registered months ahead shooting L-10 minor. When I picked up my registration packet on the match day morning, I was listed as shooting L-10 major. I had them correct it to L-10 minor, and watch the registration person highlight my name and make a note on the sheet. I shot the entire match that day, and drove home the following morning. By the time I got home late afternoon (and way past the protest period), I discovered that I was still being scored major. I emailed to the MD to let him know, knowing that the scores were already locked in, but I didn't want him to think I was trying to cheat. Anyway, the point is that mistakes can be made. It could be on the part of the Match Officials about incorrect registration, or the part of the competitor. Note that rule 6.2.5.2 says that once the RM makes the decision to bump to open, it is final. A good match staff would probably sort out where the error was before a decision to bump to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 there is no way a 10 rnd 45 mag will fit the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 But a 9 round .40 mag will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Ah, but the interesting thing happens... A Single Stack shooter declares Major, goes to chrono, and is found to be shooting minor. Then that shooter is free to load up to 10 rounds in a mag if he wishes. A Single Stack shooter declares Major, is found to be shooting with 9 rounds in a mag after the start signal. As noted by the above the shooter gets bumped to Open. After the bump to open, then the shooter is free to load as many bullets as he wants in a magazine, change magazine pouch and holster positions, and free to tack on optics or a flashlight. I don't think the person could change mag pouch and holster positions. 5.2.5.3 does not mention anything about being able to change those if bumped to a different division. 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the "Standby" command. I also don't think he can change the sights because of being bumped, only if his originals become unsafe or unserviceable: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor's original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Inserting a magazine with 9 rounds into a SSTK Major gun is a no-go whether or not the gun was loaded at the start. I assume you mean after the start signal. Using a .40 mag with 9 rounds to barney up before the start is OK. I know that I've watched dozens of shooters (including myself) do this at the SSN and no one has said a word. Just trying to avoid confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Ah, but the interesting thing happens... A Single Stack shooter declares Major, goes to chrono, and is found to be shooting minor. Then that shooter is free to load up to 10 rounds in a mag if he wishes. A Single Stack shooter declares Major, is found to be shooting with 9 rounds in a mag after the start signal. As noted by the above the shooter gets bumped to Open. After the bump to open, then the shooter is free to load as many bullets as he wants in a magazine, change magazine pouch and holster positions, and free to tack on optics or a flashlight. I don't think the person could change mag pouch and holster positions. 5.2.5.3 does not mention anything about being able to change those if bumped to a different division. 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the "Standby" command. I also don't think he can change the sights because of being bumped, only if his originals become unsafe or unserviceable: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor's original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: Originally, I also thought that swapping sights and changing mag positions wasn't allowed, but the opinion of DNROI is that the reconfiguration is allowed. See post #22 of the thread "Declaring division, getting bumped to open, and equipment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Inserting a magazine with 9 rounds into a SSTK Major gun is a no-go whether or not the gun was loaded at the start. I assume you mean after the start signal. Using a .40 mag with 9 rounds to barney up before the start is OK. I know that I've watched dozens of shooters (including myself) do this at the SSN and no one has said a word. Just trying to avoid confusion. My reply was based on Roger's opening poist which included, "....has a mag with 9 rounds in it after the buzzer", so your assumption is correct. Also, I hoped that by saying, "...was loaded at the start" would indicate we are talking about a point in time after the start signal. I see now that I should have been clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Originally, I also thought that swapping sights and changing mag positions wasn't allowed, but the opinion of DNROI is that the reconfiguration is allowed. See post #22 of the thread "Declaring division, getting bumped to open, and equipment". Laid a baited trap, didntcha? There's a reason many states prohibit hunting over baited fields. I remember that quite well (that's why I didn't bite at the bait), but don't put too much weight on it. I have a lot of faith in John's opinion, but It is after all only an email response to an individual, and comes no where close to meeting the description of either a Ruling or a Clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) Roger are you saying a SS shooter shooting major on an unloaded gun start had a magazine with 9 rounds in it after the buzzer. Is this correct? Was the magazine used on the stage? Edited November 7, 2011 by Jaxshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Originally, I also thought that swapping sights and changing mag positions wasn't allowed, but the opinion of DNROI is that the reconfiguration is allowed. See post #22 of the thread "Declaring division, getting bumped to open, and equipment". Laid a baited trap, didntcha? There's a reason many states prohibit hunting over baited fields. I remember that quite well (that's why I didn't bite at the bait), but don't put too much weight on it. I have a lot of faith in John's opinion, but It is after all only an email response to an individual, and comes no where close to meeting the description of either a Ruling or a Clarification. Sorry, I didn't post that meaning to troll. That was a contentious discussion back there, but in the end, it seemed that people felt that it was okay to reconfigure equipment during the bump to Open. I was using that to backup my statement about changing gear. Given my druthers I would have preferred to keep my original opinion that reconfiguration isn't allowed. You are right on about John's opinion not coming close to being a ruling or clarification. I think Kevin C phrased it perfectly in post #45 on that thread: "So - off the cuff comments by Troy or John, and well reasoned, informed opinions offered here, simply do not count for score." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Inserting a magazine with 9 rounds into a SSTK Major gun is a no-go whether or not the gun was loaded at the start. I assume you mean after the start signal. Using a .40 mag with 9 rounds to barney up before the start is OK. I know that I've watched dozens of shooters (including myself) do this at the SSN and no one has said a word. Just trying to avoid confusion. My reply was based on Roger's opening poist which included, "....has a mag with 9 rounds in it after the buzzer", so your assumption is correct. Also, I hoped that by saying, "...was loaded at the start" would indicate we are talking about a point in time after the start signal. I see now that I should have been clearer. Sorry about that. Sometimes I take things WAAAY too literally. I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Yep, the mag had 9 rounds after the start and everyone wants to use 6.2.5.1 for a bump to open, but what requirements were not met? OK the 9 rounds for major, but the shooter still meets the DIVISION requirements but now meets them for minor instead. Same as a limited shooter declaring major and going minor at the chrono. They are scored minor not bumped to open. I think SS is the only division that has this kind of loophole to keep from being automatically bumped to open. There was no division illegal equipment and the division requirements are still being met. We have a single division not a major SS and minor SS division. I can choose to shoot ammo that makes major PF, but shoot minor scoring if I want. Edited November 8, 2011 by Fireant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kend Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Where's the damn popcorn thingy at????? Just when I was getting bored.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yep, the mag had 9 rounds after the start and everyone wants to use 6.2.5.1 for a bump to open, but what requirements were not met? OK the 9 rounds for major, but the shooter still meets the DIVISION requirements but now meets them for minor instead. Same as a limited shooter declaring major and going minor at the chrono. They are scored minor not bumped to open. I think SS is the only division that has this kind of loophole to keep from being automatically bumped to open. There was no division illegal equipment and the division requirements are still being met. We have a single division not a major SS and minor SS division. I can choose to shoot ammo that makes major PF, but shoot minor scoring if I want. It comes down to what you declared for the division. If you declared major, you are required to meet the requirements for the division, which are outlined in D5. If chrono bumps you to minor - different situation, but in a situation where you haven't been scored minor, have been determined to be in violation of equipment based on your declared power factor, you can't back up and say "oops, I meant to have declared minor" just because you were caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Yep, the mag had 9 rounds after the start and everyone wants to use 6.2.5.1 for a bump to open, but what requirements were not met? OK the 9 rounds for major, but the shooter still meets the DIVISION requirements but now meets them for minor instead. Same as a limited shooter declaring major and going minor at the chrono. They are scored minor not bumped to open. I think SS is the only division that has this kind of loophole to keep from being automatically bumped to open. There was no division illegal equipment and the division requirements are still being met. We have a single division not a major SS and minor SS division. I can choose to shoot ammo that makes major PF, but shoot minor scoring if I want. If you follow the logic that there isn't a separate set of division requirements between SS major and SS minor, then it would follow that there isn't a separate set of division requirements between people shooting Production with a semi-automatic as opposed to Production with a revolver. Production semi-automatic shooters then would be allowed to change their grip profile (eg. add beaver tails and/or magwells to their Glocks) because Production revolver shooters are allowed to change their grip profiles. Edited November 8, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I find it hard to believe that someone who couldn't count or just made a mistake, would be bumped up to open. At least assign a procedural, and at worst put them in minor classification. I find it goofy when I look at ss nationals results, and I see an open division. now if they have a scope on their single stack thats a different story, but they would or should be stopped when they goto the line, because that is quite obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yep, the mag had 9 rounds after the start and everyone wants to use 6.2.5.1 for a bump to open, but what requirements were not met? OK the 9 rounds for major, but the shooter still meets the DIVISION requirements but now meets them for minor instead. Same as a limited shooter declaring major and going minor at the chrono. They are scored minor not bumped to open. I think SS is the only division that has this kind of loophole to keep from being automatically bumped to open. There was no division illegal equipment and the division requirements are still being met. We have a single division not a major SS and minor SS division. I can choose to shoot ammo that makes major PF, but shoot minor scoring if I want. It comes down to what you declared for the division. If you declared major, you are required to meet the requirements for the division, which are outlined in D5. If chrono bumps you to minor - different situation, but in a situation where you haven't been scored minor, have been determined to be in violation of equipment based on your declared power factor, you can't back up and say "oops, I meant to have declared minor" just because you were caught. +1. Although not explicitly written, I would assume that the bump from major to minor at the chrono stage is a virtual declaration for SS Minor for you (through C2.38), and you'll be free to load up to 10 in a mag after that point without risking a bump to open (via 6.2.5.1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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