Single stack question...

[Skydiver]

I find it hard to believe that someone who couldn't count or just made a mistake, would be bumped up to open. At least assign a procedural, and at worst put them in minor classification. I find it goofy when I look at ss nationals results, and I see an open division. now if they have a scope on their single stack thats a different story, but they would or should be stopped when they goto the line, because that is quite obvious.

And if at a unloaded gun, table start, 16 round medium course, they put a mag into their front pocket, and later use it in the COF, should we also just assign a procedural or bump to open?

[Strick]

SSTK is the division, major/minor is not, that is just for scoring. The shooter met all the requirements for the division and based on mag capacity should be scored minor.

[spanky]

8 rounds for major is a division requirement.

[Strick]

8 rounds for major is a division requirement.

And 10 for minor.......

[spanky]

There is no rule to support a change of declared power factor except for not making power factor. your pf is claimed and, based on the division requirements, you're now limited to 8 rounds IMO.

[Jaxshooter]

If you start the match declaring Major you have no option to go back to Minor scoring because you violated the magazine capacity for Major. You get bumped to Open. The same is true if you come to the line with a magazine in your front pocket when shooting Production or SS. You have violated the equipment location requirement and are bumped to Open.

[spanky]

If you start the match declaring Major you have no option to go back to Minor scoring because you violated the magazine capacity for Major. You get bumped to Open. The same is true if you come to the line with a magazine in your front pocket when shooting Production or SS. You have violated the equipment location requirement and are bumped to Open.

Actually, an official ruling was made and you can "make ready" or "unload and show clear" into and out of your front pocket in those divisions now.

[Sean Gaines]

I find it hard to believe that someone who couldn't count or just made a mistake, would be bumped up to open. At least assign a procedural, and at worst put them in minor classification. I find it goofy when I look at ss nationals results, and I see an open division. now if they have a scope on their single stack thats a different story, but they would or should be stopped when they goto the line, because that is quite obvious.

And if at a unloaded gun, table start, 16 round medium course, they put a mag into their front pocket, and later use it in the COF, should we also just assign a procedural or bump to open?

personally I think they should get a procedural for every shot fired from that mag they pulled from their pocket, so they get a procedure for each shot fired, but not one for failure to engage. that would stop that from happening, no need to move someone to open unless you have a scope, or radically do something to your single stack to detract from the 1911 theme for a tactical advantage.

[aztecdriver]

I find it hard to believe that someone who couldn't count or just made a mistake, would be bumped up to open. At least assign a procedural, and at worst put them in minor classification. I find it goofy when I look at ss nationals results, and I see an open division. now if they have a scope on their single stack thats a different story, but they would or should be stopped when they goto the line, because that is quite obvious.

You can't just assign a procedural for divisional equipment mistakes. I'd love for you to find a way for me in the rule book, but it's not there. If you violate the divisional equipment requirements during a COF, 6.2.5.1 is the only remedy in the book. The rules apply the same to Limited 10, Production and Single Stack.

[aztecdriver]

There is no rule to support a change of declared power factor except for not making power factor. your pf is claimed and, based on the division requirements, you're now limited to 8 rounds IMO.

I agree... check it:

5.6.1 One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination of the power factor of every competitor’s ammunition. In the

absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged

If there is no chronograph - the declared power factor can not be challenged. That includes the competitor themselves.

[Sean Gaines]

I find it hard to believe that someone who couldn't count or just made a mistake, would be bumped up to open. At least assign a procedural, and at worst put them in minor classification. I find it goofy when I look at ss nationals results, and I see an open division. now if they have a scope on their single stack thats a different story, but they would or should be stopped when they goto the line, because that is quite obvious.

You can't just assign a procedural for divisional equipment mistakes. I'd love for you to find a way for me in the rule book, but it's not there. If you violate the divisional equipment requirements during a COF, 6.2.5.1 is the only remedy in the book. The rules apply the same to Limited 10, Production and Single Stack.

Well if you assigned a procedural for each shot fired with the magazine that was pulled from a pouch that was in the wrong spot, or on their pocket, the person would re-evaluate moving their gear around or stop pulling mags from thier pocket, dont you think? No need to move them to open, while there is still a match to finish. I know this is not the rules, Just my oppinion of what they should do.

[Skydiver]

I find it hard to believe that someone who couldn't count or just made a mistake, would be bumped up to open. At least assign a procedural, and at worst put them in minor classification. I find it goofy when I look at ss nationals results, and I see an open division. now if they have a scope on their single stack thats a different story, but they would or should be stopped when they goto the line, because that is quite obvious.

You can't just assign a procedural for divisional equipment mistakes. I'd love for you to find a way for me in the rule book, but it's not there. If you violate the divisional equipment requirements during a COF, 6.2.5.1 is the only remedy in the book. The rules apply the same to Limited 10, Production and Single Stack.

Well if you assigned a procedural for each shot fired with the magazine that was pulled from a pouch that was in the wrong spot, or on their pocket, the person would re-evaluate moving their gear around or stop pulling mags from thier pocket, dont you think? No need to move them to open, while there is still a match to finish. I know this is not the rules, Just my oppinion of what they should do.

If it were only a procedural for not complying with division requirements, then on some stages, it maybe worth firing 11 shots out of a magazine and taking a procedural if the Division mag capacity was just 10 (, or 9 shots if the mag capacity was 8). Fortunately the rule book imposes a much harsher penalty with the bump to open.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Skydiver

[Fireant]

But with 9 rounds I am still meeting the requirements of the division, correct? My penalty is to be scored minor now. No equipment violation has occured, I have not loaded 11 rounds in a mag, all my mags are in the same place, so explain to me how that is different than the shooter that goes minor shooting L-10 an gets scored minor? They declared major, but opps didn't make it. Same thing, but no bump to open. I don't see how the rule book warrants a bump to open in this case. We are all just used to the automatic bump for a screw up, but not here. Oh yeah, it is not the same as the Revo in production since the rules spell out what is allowed for a revo in production. I am talking about division legal equipment here.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Fireant

[combat tupperware]

No you are not meeting the requirements for you division. Declared division in this case is Single Stack Major. Division requirements state no more than 8 rounds in the magazine after the start signal. Welcome to Open IMHO.

[Nik Habicht]

But with 9 rounds I am still meeting the requirements of the division, correct? My penalty is to be scored minor now. No equipment violation has occured, I have not loaded 11 rounds in a mag, all my mags are in the same place, so explain to me how that is different than the shooter that goes minor shooting L-10 an gets scored minor? They declared major, but opps didn't make it. Same thing, but no bump to open. I don't see how the rule book warrants a bump to open in this case. We are all just used to the automatic bump for a screw up, but not here. Oh yeah, it is not the same as the Revo in production since the rules spell out what is allowed for a revo in production. I am talking about division legal equipment here.

Roger,

It seems pretty simple to me: When the shooter signed up as SS, Major -- his capacity limit was set at 8 rounds per mag after the buzzer. Once he busts that capacity limit, welcome to open.....

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

The guy declaring SS Minor, doesn't get a pass for a mag loaded with 11.....

(And, for the record -- I've been trying to wrap my head around your argument for most of the day....)

[Strick]

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

There is already a differing standards if the shooter declaring major shoots minor at the chrono. They get to keep shooting if they don't make PF while the minor shooter is done.

[Skydiver]

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

There is already a differing standards if the shooter declaring major shoots minor at the chrono. They get to keep shooting if they don't make PF while the minor shooter is done.

(Unlike the other action shooting sport where not making the power floor gets you disqualified,) the sub-minor shooter isn't done. They just shoot the match for no score.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

But with 9 rounds I am still meeting the requirements of the division, correct? My penalty is to be scored minor now. No equipment violation has occured, I have not loaded 11 rounds in a mag, all my mags are in the same place, so explain to me how that is different than the shooter that goes minor shooting L-10 an gets scored minor? They declared major, but opps didn't make it. Same thing, but no bump to open. I don't see how the rule book warrants a bump to open in this case. We are all just used to the automatic bump for a screw up, but not here. Oh yeah, it is not the same as the Revo in production since the rules spell out what is allowed for a revo in production. I am talking about division legal equipment here.

Roger,

It seems pretty simple to me: When the shooter signed up as SS, Major -- his capacity limit was set at 8 rounds per mag after the buzzer. Once he busts that capacity limit, welcome to open.....

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

The guy declaring SS Minor, doesn't get a pass for a mag loaded with 11.....

(And, for the record -- I've been trying to wrap my head around your argument for most of the day....)

I completely agree with Nik's assessment here. The declaration of the division and the power factor establishes the magazine capacity limits.

Playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, though: What rule says that a shooter must declare his power factor at the beginning of the match? Yes, the typical registration form/process will ask for the power factor when the shooter registers at the beginning of the match, but the point when the power factor becomes critical is when the results are being computed to bring up the provisional match results (9.8.2). Other than that, as I read 5.6.1, the chrono station is supposed to aid in determining the power factor of the shooter's ammo. If there is no chrono station to determine the power factor, it's up to the shooter to declare one. It seems legal for a shooter to delay declaring a power factor until right before the provisional results. Does rule 6.2.3 which requires declaring Division also implicitly require declaring a power factor?

[Gary Stevens]

Yep, the mag had 9 rounds after the start and everyone wants to use 6.2.5.1 for a bump to open, but what requirements were not met? OK the 9 rounds for major, but the shooter still meets the DIVISION requirements but now meets them for minor instead. Same as a limited shooter declaring major and going minor at the chrono. They are scored minor not bumped to open. I think SS is the only division that has this kind of loophole to keep from being automatically bumped to open. There was no division illegal equipment and the division requirements are still being met. We have a single division not a major SS and minor SS division. I can choose to shoot ammo that makes major PF, but shoot minor scoring if I want.

It comes down to what you declared for the division. If you declared major, you are required to meet the requirements for the division, which are outlined in D5. If chrono bumps you to minor - different situation, but in a situation where you haven't been scored minor, have been determined to be in violation of equipment based on your declared power factor, you can't back up and say "oops, I meant to have declared minor" just because you were caught.

DING DING DING...we have a winner.

[Nik Habicht]

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

There is already a differing standards if the shooter declaring major shoots minor at the chrono. They get to keep shooting if they don't make PF while the minor shooter is done.

The minor shooter gets to keep going too -- just not for score.....

Power Factor is different than complying with divisional requirements, otherwise anyone busting declared power factor would be moved to open.....

[Nik Habicht]

But with 9 rounds I am still meeting the requirements of the division, correct? My penalty is to be scored minor now. No equipment violation has occured, I have not loaded 11 rounds in a mag, all my mags are in the same place, so explain to me how that is different than the shooter that goes minor shooting L-10 an gets scored minor? They declared major, but opps didn't make it. Same thing, but no bump to open. I don't see how the rule book warrants a bump to open in this case. We are all just used to the automatic bump for a screw up, but not here. Oh yeah, it is not the same as the Revo in production since the rules spell out what is allowed for a revo in production. I am talking about division legal equipment here.

Roger,

It seems pretty simple to me: When the shooter signed up as SS, Major -- his capacity limit was set at 8 rounds per mag after the buzzer. Once he busts that capacity limit, welcome to open.....

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

The guy declaring SS Minor, doesn't get a pass for a mag loaded with 11.....

(And, for the record -- I've been trying to wrap my head around your argument for most of the day....)

I completely agree with Nik's assessment here. The declaration of the division and the power factor establishes the magazine capacity limits.

Playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, though: What rule says that a shooter must declare his power factor at the beginning of the match? Yes, the typical registration form/process will ask for the power factor when the shooter registers at the beginning of the match, but the point when the power factor becomes critical is when the results are being computed to bring up the provisional match results (9.8.2). Other than that, as I read 5.6.1, the chrono station is supposed to aid in determining the power factor of the shooter's ammo. If there is no chrono station to determine the power factor, it's up to the shooter to declare one. It seems legal for a shooter to delay declaring a power factor until right before the provisional results. Does rule 6.2.3 which requires declaring Division also implicitly require declaring a power factor?

Sky,

no, power factor must be declared at registration -- especially in SS, where it affects how high the ROs count on every stage....

I've never been to a major match where that wasn't checked/confirmed at registration....

[kend]

Yep, the mag had 9 rounds after the start and everyone wants to use 6.2.5.1 for a bump to open, but what requirements were not met? OK the 9 rounds for major, but the shooter still meets the DIVISION requirements but now meets them for minor instead. Same as a limited shooter declaring major and going minor at the chrono. They are scored minor not bumped to open. I think SS is the only division that has this kind of loophole to keep from being automatically bumped to open. There was no division illegal equipment and the division requirements are still being met. We have a single division not a major SS and minor SS division. I can choose to shoot ammo that makes major PF, but shoot minor scoring if I want.

It comes down to what you declared for the division. If you declared major, you are required to meet the requirements for the division, which are outlined in D5. If chrono bumps you to minor - different situation, but in a situation where you haven't been scored minor, have been determined to be in violation of equipment based on your declared power factor, you can't back up and say "oops, I meant to have declared minor" just because you were caught.

DING DING DING...we have a winner.

But...but....but, it's a SS Division with a major or minor pf (just like L-10), not a SS Major Division and a SS Minor Division.

[Strick]

The minor shooter gets to keep going too -- just not for score.....

Power Factor is different than complying with divisional requirements, otherwise anyone busting declared power factor would be moved to open.....

Your chance to win is done......

According to the posts in this thread, PF is a huge part of divisional compliance when shooting SSTK major.

[aztecdriver]

But with 9 rounds I am still meeting the requirements of the division, correct? My penalty is to be scored minor now. No equipment violation has occured, I have not loaded 11 rounds in a mag, all my mags are in the same place, so explain to me how that is different than the shooter that goes minor shooting L-10 an gets scored minor? They declared major, but opps didn't make it. Same thing, but no bump to open. I don't see how the rule book warrants a bump to open in this case. We are all just used to the automatic bump for a screw up, but not here. Oh yeah, it is not the same as the Revo in production since the rules spell out what is allowed for a revo in production. I am talking about division legal equipment here.

Again, no. The only way to change the scoring from Major to Minor is by your initial declaration or the rule I quoted - testing at a match chronograph. The only remedy to equipment violations is through 6.2.5.1. The division requirements read, paraphrased - "If you are shooting major, your maximum mag capacity is 8 rounds. If you are shooting minor, your magazine capacity is 10 rounds." It does not imply that if you have 9 rounds, you are shooting minor.

[Fireant]

No, I still don't think the rules support that. Let's say I am shooting production and add grip tape to the slide, I have now violated the equipment/requirements of the division and I'm shooting open. Let's say I load 11 rounds in a mag by mistake and get caught, I'm shooting open. In both of those situations the division requirements were violated. Now back to the 9 round major shooter, they have not violated a division requirement, they have violated a powerfactor/scoring issue. The shooter is still legal for the division in everything they have done correct? People are trying to make major a requirement for the division when it is not. If I follow the same logic used to bump them to open, then if a shooter delcares major in SS and chronos at 164.9 then they are bumped to open for not making major since they declared it?